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<div><span><span><div>Dear all,<br clear="none"></div></span></span><div><span><span><div>A close colleague of mine,
Natalia Zaika, wrote a paper on exactly this kind of alternation "in
Lithuanian and elsewhere", see <a href="https://www.academia.edu/21511423/The_directive_locative_alternation_in_Lithuanian_and_elsewhere_2016_" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">https://www.academia.edu/21511423/The_directive_locative_alternation_in_Lithuanian_and_elsewhere_2016_</a></div><div>There are many references to
previous studies, too.</div></span></span></div><span><span><div>Best,</div>Sergey Say</span></span><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Thursday, October 11, 2018, 7:37:28 PM GMT+3, Peter Arkadiev <peterarkadiev@yandex.ru> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydpfb50e4afyiv3367376652"><div><div>Re Russian and the lative/essive expressions with verbs of displacement in general I suggest looking into the following paper:</div><div>Nikitina, Tatiana. <span style="font-size:12pt;">Variation in the encoding of endpoint of motion in Russian. In: V. Hasko, R. Perelmutter (eds.), <i>New Approaches to Slavic Verbs of Motion</i>. Amsterdam, Philadelphia: John Benjamins, 2010, pp. 267–290. <a shape="rect" href="https://www.academia.edu/2916470/Variation_in_the_encoding_of_endpoints_of_motion_in_Russian" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/2916470/Variation_in_the_encoding_of_endpoints_of_motion_in_Russian</a></span></div><div> </div><div><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:16px;">Best regards,</span></font></div><div> </div><div><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:16px;">Peter</span></font></div><div> </div><div>-- </div><div>Peter Arkadiev, PhD</div><div>Institute of Slavic Studies</div><div>Russian Academy of Sciences</div><div>Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow</div><div>peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</div><div>http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>11.10.2018, 16:39, "Mike Morgan" <mwmbombay@gmail.com>:</div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="ydpfb50e4afyiv3367376652yqt4121809550" id="ydpfb50e4afyiv3367376652yqtfd61136"><div>Russian also "follows" the "Finnish way" of doing things:<div>locative (prepositional) case for static: is located in a place</div><div>accusative case for dynamic: put something in a place</div><div> </div><div>Sanskrit also</div><div> </div><div>I am guessing that the languages of this type are not, in face few as Ian suggests.</div></div> <div>On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Bakker, Dik <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:D.Bakker@uva.nl" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">D.Bakker@uva.nl</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style="font-family:Arial;font-size:14px;"><div style="direction:ltr;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;font-size:12pt;"><div>I think that one should not ignore</div><div>the semantics of the verb ('hide').</div><div> </div><div>Sebastian's English example (trans vs intrans) makes</div><div>this very clear.</div><div> </div><div>So, it seems not to be a clear-cut case where</div><div>a simple translation would render the answer</div><div>with respect to possible case/adposition differences.</div><div> </div><div>Best,</div><div> </div><div>Dik</div><div> </div><div> <div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">dr. Dik Bakker </font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;">Dept. of General Linguistics<br clear="none">Universities of Amsterdam & Lancaster<br clear="none">tel (+31) <span>35 544 75 78</span><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.uva.nl/profiel/b/a/d.bakker/d.bakker.html</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Societas Linguistica Europaea<br clear="none">Secretary<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/</a></span></font><br clear="none"><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.societaslinguistica.eu/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.linguisticsociety.eu/</a></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="font-family:Times New Roman;color:#000000;font-size:16px;"><hr><div style="direction:ltr;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma" color="#000000"><b>Van:</b> Lingtyp [<a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] namens Hannu Tommola [<a shape="rect" href="mailto:hannu.tommola@uta.fi" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">hannu.tommola@uta.fi</a>]<br clear="none"><b>Verzonden:</b> donderdag 11 oktober 2018 14:48<br clear="none"><b>Aan:</b> Hartmut Haberland<br clear="none"><b>CC:</b> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"><b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"</font><br clear="none"> </div><div> </div><div><p>For a Finnish speaker this is the only plausible solution..;-) , besides, it seems still to be possible to use the German _verstecken_ in this way, too. See Duden Wörterbuch: Sie versteckte das Geld in ihrem Schreibtisch / (selten:) in ihren Schreibtisch.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Best,<br clear="none">Hannu<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Quoting Hartmut Haberland <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>>:</p><blockquote type="cite" style="border-left:2px solid blue;margin-left:2px;padding-left:12px;"><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">I am a German speaker and immediately I find the Finnish solution very plausible.</span> <span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE"> After all, in German we also have</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">Der Stein liegt in der Schale. (Dative)</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">Ich legte den Stein in die Schale.</span> <span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US"> (Accusative)</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">So German is actually Finnish-type, too, in part at least. The problem seems to be with German ‘verstecken,’ that is not seen as a movement verb.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">Cf.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">Ich verstecke den Stein hinter dem (not: hinter das) Haus.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">There are other German verbs like that, e.g. anbringen, ablegen, abstellen, parken, archivieren, speichern, … that work the same.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">Same with Danish <i>gemme</i> ‘verstecken, aufheben’:</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;">Jeg gemmer maden (inde) i spisekammeret.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">Now <i>inde</i> is not obligatory, actually a bit awkward, but possible. But it indicates place (where?), not direction (whither?), and the corresponding directional adverb (<i>ind</i>) would be impossible here.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">With verbs like <i>legen, stellen, setzen, sich setzen</i> German is like Finnish.</span> <span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US"> But they seem to be in the minority.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">Never thought of it –</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">Wir parkten das Auto im Hof (We parked the car in the backyard), not</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">*Wir parkten das Auto in den Hof (*into the backyard)</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">Besides</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">Wir stellten das Auto im Hof ab (roughly same meaning, but more like ‚because it was in the way’)</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">I would marginally accept</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="DE">Wir stellten das Auto in den Hof ab</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;color:#1f497d;" lang="EN-US">though.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><div><p><b><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;" lang="EN-US">Hartmut Haberland</span></b><br clear="none"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;" lang="EN-US">Professor emeritus</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;"><img alt="RUC" style="width: 100px; max-width: 100px;" src="https://intra.ruc.dk/fileadmin/assets/adm/campusit/ruc.png" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true" data-id="1539276686899" draggable="false"></span><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;" lang="EN-US">Roskilde University</span></b><br clear="none"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;" lang="EN-US">Department of Communication and Arts</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">Universitetsvej 1<br clear="none">DK-4000 Roskilde<br clear="none">Telephone: <span>+45 46742841</span></span><br clear="none"> </p><p> </p></div><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><div style="border-color: rgb(225, 225, 225) currentcolor currentcolor; border-style: solid none none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><p><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Fra:</span></b> <span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri, sans-serif;">Lingtyp <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <b>På vegne af</b> Joo Ian<br clear="none"><b>Sendt:</b> 11. oktober 2018 13:01<br clear="none"><b>Til:</b> <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"><b>Emne:</b> [Lingtyp] "I hide my stone in my house"</span></p><p> </p></div><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">Dear all,</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">I am interested in the following hypothesis:</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in sentence (1) and (2) are the same.</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">(1) My stone is in my house.</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">(2) I hide my stone in my house.</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">For example, in German:</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">(1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">(2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are not identical, such as Finnish:</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">(1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">(2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases, I think.</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a location whereas that in PP is the endpoint of a placement event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically identical in most of the world's languages, then I can suggest that placement event profiles a static location as its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde has argued in her dissertation (<a shape="rect" href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I would appreciate if anyone can let me know any other Finnish-like cases)</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">From Hong Kong,</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;">Ian Joo</span></p><p> </p></div><div><p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;color:black;"><a shape="rect" href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></span></p><p> </p></div><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p></div></blockquote><p><br clear="none"> </p><div>Hannu Tommola<br clear="none">Professor emer. of Russian Language (Translation Theory and Practice)<br clear="none">School of Language, Translation and Literary Studies<br clear="none">FIN-33014 University of Tampere, Finland</div></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div></blockquote> <div> </div>--<div><div>Dr Michael W Morgan<br clear="none">mwm || *U*C> || mike || माईक || માઈક || মাঈক || மாஈக || مایک ||мика || 戊流岸マイク<br clear="none">sign language linguist / linguistic typologist / Deaf education consultant<br clear="none">"Have language, will travel"<br clear="none">=====================================<br clear="none">"People who are always looking down at the bottom line will always fail to see the stars"<br clear="none"> </div></div> ,<p>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></p></div></blockquote></div></div><div class="ydpfb50e4afyqt4121809550" id="ydpfb50e4afyqtfd72037">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br clear="none"></div></div>
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