<div dir="ltr">Dear Ian,<div><br></div><div>in my experience, not only Uralic but various other unrelated languages hesitate between lative (directional) and essive (static) semantics of the form to be used with verbs such as 'hide', 'put', 'sit'. In my Russian at least, with different degrees of admissibility and non-standard-ness, all three verbs and some other take either where or where-to arguments. Many East Caucasian languages take the essive (static) marking with many if not most of the verbs with similar semantics as their only option, although the exact lexical range differs. Both Russian and East Caucasian of course only take the essive (static location) marking with locative copulas and similar verbs, while taking only lative (directional) marking with core verbs of motion (Goal with verbs such as 'go' or 'run').</div><div><br></div><div>I have a small draft that discusses the phenomenon in East Caucasian in relative detail, although the main topic of it is something else. I can share it with you if you need more information.</div><div><br></div><div>Sincerely,</div><div><br></div><div>Michael Daniel</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">чт, 11 окт. 2018 г. в 15:59, Florian Siegl <<a href="mailto:florian.siegl@gmx.net">florian.siegl@gmx.net</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="text-align:left;direction:ltr" bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#2e3436" link="#2a76c6" vlink="#2e3436"><div><div>Well, the reflexive Finnish example is to some degree ambiguous, because the illative marked goal could also be governed by the reflexive -u derivation, a pattern which is almost default in standard Finnish; e.g., osallistu-a kokoukse-en <participate-inf meeting-ill> ‘to participate in a meeting’. The transitive case is ok, but the intransitive allows at least two interpretations.</div><div><br></div><div>The fact that Finnish can mark states as movement is usually mentioned with jäädä ‘to stay’ so transitive piilottaa ‘to hide’ + illative is somehow already motivated language internally:</div><div><br></div><div>Hän on Lontoo-ssa.</div><div>3sg be.3sg London-iness</div><div>‘S/he is in London.’ (inessive case)</div><div><br></div><div>Hän jää Lontoo-seen</div><div>3sg stay.3sg London-ill</div><div>‘S/he stays in London.’ (illative)</div><div><br></div><div>And a side note, there is multifunctional case. In Dolgan (Turkic, Northern Siberia) one would get dative case in both instances:</div><div><br></div><div>min hurug-u d'ahaak ih-iger kistee-bit-im</div><div>1sg letter-acc box inside-px3.dat hide-pst.res.1sg</div><div>‘I hid the letter in(to) a box.’</div><div><br></div><div>taba talak-tar is-ter-i-ger kiste-m-mit, </div><div>reindeer bush-pl inside-pl-px3-dat hide-refl-pst.res.3sg</div><div>‘The reindeer hid itself in(side) the twigs of a bush...’ (from a popular fairytale)</div><div><br></div><div>The problem is that Dolgan (and some other Siberian Turkic languages) use the dative case to encode both goal (whither) and location (where)…</div><div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div><br></div><div>Florian Siegl</div>
</div><div>On Thu, 2018-10-11 at 14:24 +0300, Denys T. wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ian & Sebastian, <div><br></div><div>at least, in Finnish it would be the same Illative case for both. Here’s a random example from the internet:</div><div><br></div><div>(1) Piilouduin vessa-an</div><div>hide.oneself.pst.1sg toilet-ill</div><div>‘I’ve hidden in the toilet’ (<a href="http://vauva.fi" target="_blank">vauva.fi</a>)</div><div><br></div><div>Best, </div><div>Denys </div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>On 11 Oct 2018, at 14:19, Sebastian Nordhoff <<a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" target="_blank">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>> wrote:</div><div><div>Hi Ian,<br>this might even become clearer with transitive and intransitive 'hide'.<br>What about<br><br>(1) My sister hides in the garden<br>(2) I hide my sister in the garden<br><br>How would this work in Finnish-style languages? (Obviously, reflexives<br>can complicate the picture)<br><br>Best<br>Sebastian<br><br><br><br>On 10/11/2018 01:00 PM, Joo Ian wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:2px #729fcf solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear all,<br><br>I am interested in the following hypothesis:<br><br>In most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in sentence (1) and (2) are the same.<br><br>(1) My stone is in my house.<br>(2) I hide my stone in my house.<br><br>For example, in German:<br><br>(1) Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".<br>(2) Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".<br><br>Although there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are not identical, such as Finnish:<br><br>(1) Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)<br>(2) Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)<br><br>But cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases, I think.<br><br>I think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a location whereas that in PP is the endpoint of a placement event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically identical in most of the world's languages, then I can suggest that placement event profiles a static location as its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde has argued in her dissertation (<a href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015" target="_blank">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)<br><br>Although I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I would appreciate if anyone can let me know any other Finnish-like cases)<br><br>From Hong Kong,<br>Ian Joo<br><a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a><br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Lingtyp mailing list</pre><pre><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></pre><pre><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></pre><pre><br></pre></blockquote></div>
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