<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Martin,<div><br></div><div>I argue about this scale in a draft, in this form (I must admit I did not yet know about Zaika's paper when I was writing). While the scale is ok, strictly speaking the hierarchy should be formulated in a slightly different way, I guess - if a language distinguishes between expression of static location and directional (lative) - in other words, if two different types of marking are used with any of the verbs on the scale in the first place - then the two markers would cover contiguous areas on this scale. Because if a marker covers the whole scale, it means that there is no essive - lative distinction. </div><div><br></div><div>But this is only matter of wording, obviously,</div><div><br></div><div>Misha</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">сб, 13 окт. 2018 г. в 14:48, Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
So it seems that there is an implicational scale of verb types:<br>
<br>
go/send > put > hide/bury > remain<br>
<br>
The higher a verb is on the scale, the more likely it is for a
language to use allative marking, and the lower it is, the more
likely it is that a language uses locative marking.<br>
<br>
Finnish and Estonian use allative all the way down this scale (but
they have a locative marker for 'be'), and some languages may use
allative for 'hide/bury' (maybe even German, though I find such
examples barely acceptable). Other languages have variation for
'put' (including English, but not German), and still other languages
have variation even for 'go/send' (not English).<br>
<br>
Zaika's (2016) paper is indeed very relevant – thanks for sharing
it. Someone should study this pattern for more languages.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
P.S. For "allative/locative", different term pairs have been used in
this discussion: "lative/essive" (Uralic/Caucasian tradition),
"directive/locative" (Zaika), "dynamic goal/static location". I
think all these mean the same (though I understand why Uralicists
prefer "lative" and don't want to rename their "allative" to
"ad-allative").<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_5960987308535632065moz-cite-prefix">On 11.10.18 23:20, Jane Simpson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Some Australian languages show this distinction
between location of object, event and subject, which Ken Hale
drew attention to. Patrick McConvell and I discuss this with
comparisons with Finnish:
<div>
<p class="m_5960987308535632065gmail-p1">McConvell, Patrick, and Simpson, Jane.
2012. Fictive motion down under:<span class="m_5960987308535632065gmail-Apple-converted-space"> </span>The
locative-allative case alternation in some Australian
Indigenous languages. In <i>Shall we play the Festschrift
game? Essays on the occasion of Lauri Carlson's 60th
birthday</i>, eds. Diana Santos, Wanjiku N'gang'a and
Krister Lindén, 159-180. Heidelberg: Springer.</p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:01 PM Joo Ian <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@outlook.com" target="_blank">ian.joo@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">Dear
all,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">I
am interested in the following hypothesis:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">In
most of the world's languages, the PP "in my house" in
sentence (1) and (2) are the same.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">(1)
My stone is in my house.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">(2)
I hide my stone in my house.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">For
example, in German:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">(1)
Mein Stein ist "in meinem Haus".<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">(2)
Ich verstecke meinen Stein "in meinem Haus".<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">Although
there are few languages where the PP of (1) and (2) are
not identical, such as Finnish:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">(1)
Kiveni on "talossani". (Locative)<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">(2)
Piilotan kiveni "talooni". (Illative)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">But
cases like Finnish are far fewer than English-like cases,
I think.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">I
think this is interesting because the PP of (1) and that
of (2) are semantically different: the PP in (1) is a
location whereas that in PP is the endpoint of a placement
event. If I can show that the two PPs are morphologically
identical in most of the world's languages, then I can
suggest that placement event profiles a static location as
its endpoint and not a dynamic goal, like Rohde has argued
in her dissertation (<a href="https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015" target="_blank">https://scholarship.rice.edu/handle/1911/18015</a>)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">Although
I find this issue interesting, I would like to know if
others find it so as well. What do you think? (Also, I
would appreciate if anyone can let me know any other
Finnish-like cases)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">From
Hong Kong,<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">Ian
Joo<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black"><a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_5960987308535632065m_-4554373551365317467gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Jane Simpson<br>
Private e-mail</div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_5960987308535632065moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="m_5960987308535632065moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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