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In fact, questionnaires of the sort proposed by Hedvig and endorsed
by David are the ONLY way in which cross-linguistic research can be
carried out.<br>
<br>
There is no contradiction at all between lists of comparison
meanings (like David's original list of 8 organism types) and the
recognition that languages "function" differently.<br>
<br>
In order to express how a language "functions" (= in order to
describe a language), one needs descriptive categories, and these
may well involve prototypes.<br>
<br>
In order to find out what languages have in common, one needs
comparative concepts (for lexical concepts: comparison meanings,
e.g. the concept-sets in the Concepticon
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://concepticon.clld.org/parameters">https://concepticon.clld.org/parameters</a>).<br>
<br>
One should avoid the mistake of thinking that a mapping from
language facts to comparative concepts is a description, or the
opposite mistake of thinking that descriptive categories would
necessarily be useful for comparison.<br>
<br>
(Sorry for belabouring this methodological point, but it seems to
come up again and again...)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15.10.18 15:03, David Gil wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:f184bc86-4476-2e34-4650-898cc9a52b64@shh.mpg.de"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>In response to the latest posting by Johanna, I think there is
widespread agreement that the meanings of words exhibit the kind
of internal structuring that is usefully represented in terms of
prototypes. But this does not preclude the need for adequate
descriptions of what is included — protypically, less
prototypically, marginally, or not at all — in the extension of
words such as "animal" and its putative counterparts across
languages. And questionnaires have proven to be a useful tool
for gathering this kind of data — it's quite easy to formulate a
questionnaire in such a way that it will elicit judgements of
prototypicality (as opposed to categorical "black-and-white"
judgements).</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/10/2018 14:49, Johanna Laakso
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:365A533A-A1E5-456E-A5C6-7354447FE81E@univie.ac.at">
Dear All,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">to be honest, I don't believe that languages
function with clear categories for concepts like "animal".
More probably, there is something like a prototypical "core"
for "animalness" (or many of them, if there are many
categories corresponding to "animal"), surrounded by grey
zones and depending on contexts, styles, subcultures, etc.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My own anecdotal experience (which first caught my
attention years ago, when working on a translation job): in
Estonian, "loomad ja linnud" (‘animals and birds’, implying
that ‘birds’ are a category distinct from ‘animals’) seems to
be a pretty frequent expression (more than 60,000 Google
hits). As a native speaker of Finnish, I find the Finnish
equivalent expression, "eläimet ja linnut", less natural or
not as idiomatic and acceptable as the Estonian one; it does
occur but clearly less frequently than in Estonian (13,700
Google hits), and according to my intuition, the Finnish
‘bird’ is a borderline case – birds might be "animals" or
"not-animals", depending on context and use. I'm also pretty
sure that many other Finnish speakers might see this
differently.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Therefore, I have great doubts concerning the use
of questionnaires for gathering data. Or, at least, the
questionnaire should be very carefully planned, to accommodate
vagueness and fuzzy or overlapping categories.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best</div>
<div class="">Johanna</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">PS. Note also that terms for animals in many
languages are greatly affected by taboos. And that the term
‘animal’ in itself is often a derivative (Finnish eläin =
"living thing", Estonian loom = "creature", Hungarian állat =
"standing thing") or a result of semantic extension or
specification (cf. German "Tier" and its Scandinavian cognates
with English "deer", or the fact that Hungarian "állat" a few
centuries ago had a more general meaning, something like
"entity" or "being") and that these developments might be
connected to cultural changes.<br class="">
<div class=""> <span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; border-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
border-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class="">
<div class="">--</div>
<div class="">Univ.Prof. Dr. Johanna Laakso</div>
<div class="">Universität Wien, Institut für
Europäische und Vergleichende Sprach- und
Literaturwissenschaft (EVSL)</div>
<div class="">Abteilung Finno-Ugristik</div>
<div class="">Campus AAKH Spitalgasse 2-4 Hof 7</div>
<div class="">A-1090 Wien</div>
<div class=""><a
href="mailto:johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at</a>
• <a
href="http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/</a></div>
<div class="">Project ELDIA: <a
href="http://www.eldia-project.org/" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.eldia-project.org/</a> </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Hedvig Skirgård <<a
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>>
kirjoitti 15.10.2018 kello 13.55:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Dear everyone,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Queries like one David posed are often
improved via more systematic data collection using a
form. I suggested Google Forms because it's one of
the most user friendly and familiar interfaces out
there where David could set up a questionnaire and
collect data on people's usage of words in their
respective language, and also get systematic data on
exactly what language they speaks.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I'm not going to set this up for anyone
else or compile the information in this thread, I'm
merely suggesting that it a Google Form may be a
productive way of going about this. <br class=""
clear="all">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Den mån 15 okt. 2018 kl 22:50
skrev Assibi Apatewon Amidu <<a
href="mailto:assibi.amidu@ntnu.no" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">assibi.amidu@ntnu.no</a>>:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""> Dear
Hedvig,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I am not myself into google,
twitter, facebook, etc. beyond pressing 'like'
buttons. If you wish to put the information on
these platforms, too, please, do so, as long it
does not distract from David's exploration.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Assibi</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">On 15. okt. 2018, at 13:21,
Hedvig Skirgård <<a
href="mailto:hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">hedvig.skirgard@gmail.com</a>></div>
<div class=""> wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-6983009224296648985Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">May I suggest a
google form to be spread around facebook
and twitter etc?<br class="" clear="all">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="m_-6983009224296648985gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
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class="">
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class="">
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class="">
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style="margin:0cm
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class=""> <span
style="font-size:9pt" class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm 0.0001pt"
class=""><font
class=""
face="arial,
helvetica,
sans-serif"
size="2"><b
class="">Med
vänliga
hälsningar</b><b
class="">,</b><br
class="">
</font></div>
<div class="">
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class="">
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class="">
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class="">
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class=""> </div>
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size="1">P.S.
If you have
multiple email
addresses, I
kindly ask you
to just use
one with
corresponding
with me. Email
threads and
invites to get
confusing
otherwise. I
will only
email you from
my gmail, even
if other email
addresses
re-direct
emails to them
to my gmail
(ANU etc).</font></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Den mån 15 okt.
2018 kl 21:31 skrev Assibi Apatewon
Amidu <<a
href="mailto:assibi.amidu@ntnu.no"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">assibi.amidu@ntnu.no</a>>:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"
class="">Dear David and all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your exploration is very
educative. I cannot claim to be able
to answer your questions, but here
is a take from Kiswahili. In
Kiswahili, the categorization is as
follows:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1. <i class="">Mtu/Watu</i>
'being/s' (Classes 1/2 M/WA)
includes human and other animates.
They are superordniate terms which
subsume (2-3).</div>
<div class="">2. <i class="">Mnyama/Wanyama</i>
'animal/s, ±live' (Classes 1/2
M/WA) , (historically
undifferentiated as<i class="">
nyama/nyama</i> of classes 9/10,
N/N up to ends of the 19th
century) which subsume (3), hence
hypernym to (3).</div>
<div class="">3. <i class="">Mdudu/Wadudu</i>
'insect/s, crawler/s, parasite/s,
and others, ±live' (Classes 1/2
M/WA).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This gives us three
generic terms for referring to
humans, animal, insects and other
species all the way to microbes.
(2-3) are co-hyponyms of (1). These
are not sharp mutually exclusive
categories. Thus, centipede,
scorpion, etc. are also types of
(3), and human, and other animals,
e.g. hippo, can be described as <i
class="">wadudu</i>, or better
still with the augmentative <i
class="">dudu/madudu</i>,
depending on the communication
intention of the speaker, e,g, how
monstrous they perceive the
entity. Returning to your list of
words, they would fall under (1-2),
but specifically under (2) in
everyday usage. For a quick, not too
detailed, discussion, kindly look at
chapter 2 of</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Amidu, A. A. (2007). <i
class="">Semantic Assignement
Rules in Kiswahili Bantu Classes</i>. Köln: Rüdiger
Köppe Verlag. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best wishes,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Assibi</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">On 14. okt. 2018, at
08:11, David Gil <<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>></div>
<div class=""> wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000" class="">
<p class="">Randy,</p>
<p class="">So which of the
items in (1-8) are covered
by Chinese <i class="">dòngwù</i>
(動物), ‘moving thing’?</p>
<p class="">David<br class="">
</p>
<p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558moz-cite-prefix">On
14/10/2018 03:59, Randy
LaPolla wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">Hi David,
<div class="">The categories
as you have them (1-8)
reflect certain cultural
conceptions, and so won’t
be the same for other
cultures. For example, in
Chinese bats were
traditionally seen as
flying mice, and lizards
were seen as four-legged
snakes. </div>
<div class="">The word in
Chinese that we translate
as ‘animal’ is <i
class="">dòngwù</i>
(動物), ‘moving thing’. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Randy<br
class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Sent
from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br
class="">
On 14 Oct 2018, at 12:33
AM, David Gil <<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">Dear
all,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"><br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">I am
interested in
exploring,
cross-linguistically,
the semantic range
of words that
correspond more or
less to the
English word
"animal".</span></p>
<div class=""><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">Here
are examples of
the things that
English "animal"
refers to:</span></p>
<div class=""><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">1.
dog, kangaroo,
lizard, frog ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">2.
eagle, sparrow,
chicken, bat ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">3.
bee, scorpion,
spider, centipede
...<br class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">4.
crab, shrimp ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">5.
worm, leech ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">6.
starfish,
jellyfish, squid,
octopus ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">7.
oyster, clam ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">8.
sponge (?) ...<br
class="">
</span></p>
<div class=""><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">I am
looking for
examples of
languages in which
the basic word
closest to English
"animal" is
nevertheless
different in its
coverage.<span
class=""> </span>In
particular, I
would like to find
instances — if
such exist — of
languages in which
there is a basic
word that covers
the examples in
1-4 (or maybe 1-5)
to the exclusion
of those in 5-8
(or maybe 6-8).<span
class=""> </span><span
class=""> </span>(Note
that the question
concerns every-day
words that reflect
our naive folk
biological
knowledge, not
with scientific
terms in those few
languages that
have such
terminology.)</span></p>
<div class=""><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">Some
words of
background:<span
class=""> </span>A
colleague and I
working in
experimental
cognitive science
have found
(non-linguistic)
empirical evidence
for the
psychological
reality of an
ontological
category that
consists roughly
of animals of the
kind exemplified
in 1-4 (and
possibly also 5).<span
class=""> </span>
We are calling
this category
"higher animals".<span
class=""> </span>The
characteristic
prototypical
features of higher
animals include a
single axis of
symmetry, the
existence of head,
torso and limbs, a
face in the front
of the head that
includes sensory
organs such as
eyes, and a mouth
for eating, and
the ability to
move forward in
the direction that
the head is
facing. <span
class=""> </span>A
challenge that we
face is that, in
the (few)
languages that we
are familiar with,
there is no simple
word for higher
animals.<span
class=""> </span>But
we are hoping that
other languages
might have such a
word.<span
class=""> </span>
in addition, we
would also welcome
grammatical
evidence for the
category of higher
animals, for
example in the
form of
grammatical rules
that are sensitive
to the animacy
hierarchy by
making reference
to a cut-off point
between higher and
other animals.</span></p>
<div class=""><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">I
look forward to
your responses.<span
class=""> </span>
Thanks,</span></p>
<div class=""><span
class=""
lang="EN-US"> </span><br
class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class=""
lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<pre class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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<pre class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="m_-6983009224296648985m_6965022154629685558moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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