<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>If I understand Françoise's data correctly, it looks like we might be on grounds that are similar to what one finds with other valency-changing operations sometimes, i.e., in terms of some coding or behavioral properties, a construction behaves like a transitive construction, but in others it doesn't. In other words, sometimes different properties don't converge on picking out the same grammatical relation.</div><div><br></div><div>Just as an example, Kirill Kozhanov's (2016) very nice articles discusses applicativizing prefixes in Lithuanian, showing that some applied objects show accusative case, genitive of negation, promotion to S when passivized, incompatibility with detransitive ('reflexive') markers, do not allow another object, and so on. Others show only some of these properties. There seems to be a hierarchy of such properties, but it wasn't fully worked out, because Kozhanov decided that if an argument doesn't meet all of the requirements, it isn't fully a P, but rather a kind of adjunct. </div><div> </div><div>So there is then a question as to whether one wants to talk about transitivity at the level of individual properties (e.g., "Construction X is transitive in terms of case, but not in terms of indexing", etc.) or whether one wants to restrict transitivity to a particular constellation of properties (e.g., "Construction X is transitive iff it has all properties of the construction with 'break'"). Of course, one could equally talk about this in terms of the arguments or grammatical relations ("Argument X behaves like or aligns with P in terms of property Y, but not Z"). </div><div><br></div><div>There have been arguments in the direction of the latter approach, e.g., Bickel (2011) and Witzlack-Makarevich (2010), as well as (apparently) a <a href="https://benjamins.com/catalog/tsl.123">forthcoming book</a> by the same authors. </div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Eitan<br></div><div><br></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal"><span style="font-variant-caps:normal;line-height:18.399999618530273px">Bickel, Balthasar, 2011. Grammatical relations typology. In: <a href="http://www.zora.uzh.ch/view/authors_for_linking_in_citation/Song=3AJae_Jung=3A=3A.html"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Song, Jae Jung</span></a>, ed., <i>The Oxford Handbook of Language Typology</i>. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 399–444.</span></span>A</font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Kozhanov, Kirill. 2016. Verbal prefixation and argument structure in Lithuanian, in: <span style="line-height:18.399999618530273px">Axel Holvoet & Nicole Nau (eds.). </span><span style="line-height:18.399999618530273px"><i>Argument realization in Baltic, </i>363-402</span><span style="line-height:18.399999618530273px">. </span><span style="line-height:18.399999618530273px">Amsterdam, Philadelphia: John Benjamins</span></font></p><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"></span></font><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Witzlack-Makarevich, Alena. 2011. <i>Typological variations in grammatical relations</i>. Leipzig: University of Leipzig dissertation.<br></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Witzlack-Makarevich, Alena & Balthasar Bickel, eds., <i>Argument selectors: New perspectives on grammatical relations</i>. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. </font></p></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 6:06 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an
    applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a
    basic transitive construction.<br>
    <br>
    Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001)
    is an (instrumental) applicative:<br>
    <br>
    npun-ak kolay peda<br>
    kill-APPL snake machete<br>
    <br>
    But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition
    (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a
    typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).<br>
    <br>
    There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term
    "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most
    people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this
    by speaking about promotion to "(core) object":
    <a class="m_-7901130048025296421moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br>
    <br>
    (Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about
    "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making
    precise what is meant by "object", <a class="m_-7901130048025296421moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wals.info/chapter/109" target="_blank">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>.
    But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means
    objects coded like P-arguments.)<br>
    <br>
    This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should
    not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases – but
    this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat
    like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when the case in
    question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of
    'give').<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    Martin<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="m_-7901130048025296421moz-cite-prefix">On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross
      Tallman wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Hello,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">I know
          of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo
          and other languages. But I have a question about terminology
          here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?)
          postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are
          the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case
          (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there
          some type of semantic criterion at work here?</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">best,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Adam </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose
          <<a href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr" target="_blank">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="FR">
            <div class="m_-7901130048025296421m_5483397821248079755WordSection1">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Dear Simon,</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Thanks for your query, it’s very
                  interesting.
                </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an
                  applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated
                  with the presence of verbal classifiers that refer to
                  a location. When such a verbal classifier is present,
                  the “coreferential” NP can be expressed as an object
                  rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition,
                  as in the second example below). Interestingly, there
                  is some variation. The preposition can be maintained
                  in the locative phrase, even when the verbal
                  classifier is present, but there is then no valency
                  change (so the construction does not count as an
                  applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3<sup>rd</sup>
                  person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take
                  some semantically more specific prefixes for 3<sup>rd</sup>
                  person when the object is third person also (as in the
                  second example). So this case is not exactly what you
                  were looking for, but the presence of three alternates
                  here is interesting: the construction of example 3
                  could well be an intermediate step in the development
                  of the applicative effect of classifiers.</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <table class="m_-7901130048025296421m_5483397821248079755MsoNormalTable" style="width:459.05pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
                <tbody>
                  <tr style="height:25.55pt">
                    <td style="width:196.55pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="262">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">t-junopo=po</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">te</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">to</span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:100.8pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="134">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">smeno</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr style="height:25.55pt">
                    <td style="width:196.55pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="262">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">3-run=pfv</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">prep</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">art.nh</span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:100.8pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="134">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">woods</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr style="height:37.85pt">
                    <td colspan="4" style="width:459.05pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:37.85pt" valign="top" width="612">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">'S/he ran
                          <b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'</span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <table class="m_-7901130048025296421m_5483397821248079755MsoNormalTable" style="width:447.0pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
                <tbody>
                  <tr style="height:22.35pt">
                    <td style="width:269.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="359">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_-7901130048025296421_m_5483397821248079755__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="128">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">to</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">smeno</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr style="height:22.35pt">
                    <td style="width:269.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="359">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="128">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">art.nh</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">woods</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr style="height:22.35pt">
                    <td colspan="3" style="width:447.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="596">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">S/he runs
                          <b>inside</b> the woods.</span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <table class="m_-7901130048025296421m_5483397821248079755MsoNormalTable" style="width:530.0pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
                <tbody>
                  <tr style="height:22.35pt">
                    <td style="width:276.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="368">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:75.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="100">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">te</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:97.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="129">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">to</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">smeno</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr style="height:22.35pt">
                    <td style="width:276.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="368">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
                    </td>
                    <td style="width:75.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="100">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">prep</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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                    <td style="width:97.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="129">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">art.nh</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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                    <td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">woods</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
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                    <td colspan="4" style="width:530.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="707">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">S/he ran inside the woods.</span></p>
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                </tbody>
              </table>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">The slides from my presentation can be
                  downloaded from SWL8 website.</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Very best,</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Françoise
                  ROSE</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Directrice
                  de Recherches 2<sup>ème</sup> classe, CNRS</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Laboratoire
                  Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">16
                  avenue Berthelot</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">69007
                  Lyon</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">FRANCE</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(33)4
                  72 72 64 63</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79"><a href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79"></span></i></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
                  Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
                  <b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
                  <b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br>
                  <b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
                  <b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Dear Lingtyp members,</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                      I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD
                      students. We will post a summary of responses in
                      due course.<br>
                      <br>
                      From existing studies of applicatives, only two
                      Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have
                      been documented to unexpectedly retain a
                      preposition when an applicative affix is used to
                      promote a previously non-core object to core.
                      <br>
                      Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba
                      (2001), states that it is possible for the same
                      idea to be expressed using three possibilities.
                      Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a
                      preposition, secondly that the applied object is
                      marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that
                      the applied object can be marked by an applicative
                      morpheme and preposition, as the following
                      examples show.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      (1)a.    Ahmad    npun    kolay    <br>
                          Ahmad    3SG=kill    snake    <br>
                          ‘Ahmad killed a snake.’    <br>
                      <br>
                      b.    Ahmad    npun    kolay    ada    peda   
                      PREPOSITION<br>
                          Ahmad    3SG=kill    snake    with   
                      machete    <br>
                          ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’    <br>
                      <br>
                      c.    Ahmad    npunak    kolay    peda   
                      APPLICATIVE<br>
                          Ahmad    3SG=kill-APPL    snake    machete   
                      <br>
                          ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’    <br>
                      <br>
                          d.    Ahmad    npunak    kolay    ada   
                      peda    BOTH<br>
                          Ahmad    3SG=kill-APPL    snake    with   
                      machete    <br>
                          ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’   
                      (2001:204)<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative
                      verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition
                      directly following the verb when it is expected to
                      have been lost according to conventional grammar
                      rules, as shown in 2.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      (2)a.    Yang    penting    saya    sangat   
                      men-cinta-i    Sandy    <br>
                          REL    important    1SG    very   
                      meN.love.APPL    Sandy    <br>
                          dan     meny-enang-kan    atas    semua   
                      ke-jadi-an    itu    <br>
                              meN-senang-kan                    <br>
                          and    meN-pity-APPL    on    all    event   
                      that    <br>
                          ‘What is important is that I love Sandy and
                      regret everything that happened.’     (Musgrave
                      2001:156)<br>
                      <br>
                          b.    Kami    juga    sudah   
                      mem-bicara-kan    dengan     pem-erintah     pusat<br>
                          2PL    also    already    meN-talk-APPL   
                      with    government    central<br>
                          di     Jakarta    soal    rencana   
                      men-ambah    beasiswa    Jerman<br>
                          in    Jakarta    matter    plan   
                      meN-increase    scholarship    German<br>
                          untuk    Indonesia…                <br>
                          for    Indonesia                <br>
                          ‘We have also spoken with the central
                      government in Jakarta about the plan to increase
                      German scholarships to Indonesia.’      (Quasthoff
                      & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the
                      co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and
                      have usually made passing comments often
                      speculating that this feature is prevalent in
                      non-standard Indonesian.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Our query is whether any list subscribers know of
                      other languages which show this phenomenon and has
                      anyone written about it?
                    </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance for any
                      information which you can share!</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Best, Simon</p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                      References <br>
                      Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South
                      Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br>
                      Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in
                      Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD
                      thesis).<br>
                      Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012.
                      Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff
                      & Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig.
                      <a href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/" target="_blank">http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.</p>
                  </div>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                      -- </p>
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                                        <p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:18.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">-- </span><span style="color:#60666d"></span></p>
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                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Simon Musgrave  </span></b><span>               
                                                    </span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>Lecturer</span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and
                                                        Linguistics</span></b></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Monash University</span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span>VIC 3800</span></p>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Australia</span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>T: +61 3 9905 8234                     
                                                    </span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span>E: <a href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu" target="_blank">
simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a></span></p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span><a href="http://monash.edu/" target="_blank">monash.edu</a></span></p>
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                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Secretary,
                                          Australasian Association for
                                          the Digital Humanities (<a href="http://aa-dh.org/" target="_blank">aaDH</a>)</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                                          <a href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/" target="_blank">Official
                                            page</a><br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                        </p>
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          _______________________________________________<br>
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      -- <br>
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                        <div dir="ltr"><font face="monospace, monospace">Adam
                            J.R. Tallman</font>
                          <div><font face="monospace, monospace">Investigador
                              del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br>
                            </font>
                            <div><font face="monospace, monospace">PhD,
                                UT Austin</font></div>
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      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="m_-7901130048025296421moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="m_-7901130048025296421moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10   
D-07745 Jena  
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik 
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig    





</pre>
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