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I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an
applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a
basic transitive construction.<br>
<br>
Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001)
is an (instrumental) applicative:<br>
<br>
npun-ak kolay peda<br>
kill-APPL snake machete<br>
<br>
But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition
(ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a
typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).<br>
<br>
There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term
"applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most
people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this
by speaking about promotion to "(core) object":
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br>
<br>
(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about
"increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making
precise what is meant by "object", <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wals.info/chapter/109">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>.
But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means
objects coded like P-arguments.)<br>
<br>
This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should
not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases – but
this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat
like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when the case in
question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of
'give').<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross
Tallman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK0T6OixXoHc2eCv3DFwT8uyuquZYNK36qkR70mA0oFS2FOiJA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Hello,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">I know
of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo
and other languages. But I have a question about terminology
here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?)
postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are
the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case
(non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there
some type of semantic criterion at work here?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Adam </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="FR">
<div class="m_5483397821248079755WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">Dear Simon,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">Thanks for your query, it’s very
interesting.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an
applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated
with the presence of verbal classifiers that refer to
a location. When such a verbal classifier is present,
the “coreferential” NP can be expressed as an object
rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition,
as in the second example below). Interestingly, there
is some variation. The preposition can be maintained
in the locative phrase, even when the verbal
classifier is present, but there is then no valency
change (so the construction does not count as an
applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3<sup>rd</sup>
person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take
some semantically more specific prefixes for 3<sup>rd</sup>
person when the object is third person also (as in the
second example). So this case is not exactly what you
were looking for, but the presence of three alternates
here is interesting: the construction of example 3
could well be an intermediate step in the development
of the applicative effect of classifiers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<table class="m_5483397821248079755MsoNormalTable"
style="width:459.05pt;border-collapse:collapse"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:25.55pt">
<td style="width:196.55pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="262">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">t-junopo=po</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">te</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">to</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:100.8pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="134">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">smeno</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:25.55pt">
<td style="width:196.55pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="262">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">3-run=pfv</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">prep</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="108">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:100.8pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:25.55pt" valign="top" width="134">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">woods</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:37.85pt">
<td colspan="4" style="width:459.05pt;padding:.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:37.85pt" valign="top"
width="612">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">'S/he ran
<b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<table class="m_5483397821248079755MsoNormalTable"
style="width:447.0pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="0"
border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td style="width:269.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="359">
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_5483397821248079755__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="128">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">to</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">smeno</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td style="width:269.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="359">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="128">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">art.nh</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">woods</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td colspan="3" style="width:447.0pt;padding:.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top"
width="596">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">S/he runs
<b>inside</b> the woods.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<table class="m_5483397821248079755MsoNormalTable"
style="width:530.0pt;border-collapse:collapse" width="0"
border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td style="width:276.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="368">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:75.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="100">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">te</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:97.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="129">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">to</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">smeno</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td style="width:276.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="368">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:75.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="100">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">prep</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:97.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="129">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">art.nh</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top" width="109">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">woods</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td colspan="4" style="width:530.0pt;padding:.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt" valign="top"
width="707">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">S/he ran inside the woods.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">The slides from my presentation can be
downloaded from SWL8 website.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US">Very best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Françoise
ROSE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Directrice
de Recherches 2<sup>ème</sup> classe, CNRS</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Laboratoire
Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">16
avenue Berthelot</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">69007
Lyon</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">FRANCE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(33)4
72 72 64 63</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79"></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">De :</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Lingtyp [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br>
<b>À :</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Lingtyp members,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD
students. We will post a summary of responses in
due course.<br>
<br>
From existing studies of applicatives, only two
Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have
been documented to unexpectedly retain a
preposition when an applicative affix is used to
promote a previously non-core object to core.
<br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba
(2001), states that it is possible for the same
idea to be expressed using three possibilities.
Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a
preposition, secondly that the applied object is
marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that
the applied object can be marked by an applicative
morpheme and preposition, as the following
examples show.
<br>
<br>
(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br>
<br>
b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda
PREPOSITION<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda
APPLICATIVE<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete
<br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada
peda BOTH<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’
(2001:204)<br>
<br>
<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative
verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition
directly following the verb when it is expected to
have been lost according to conventional grammar
rules, as shown in 2.
<br>
<br>
(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat
men-cinta-i Sandy <br>
REL important 1SG very
meN.love.APPL Sandy <br>
dan meny-enang-kan atas semua
ke-jadi-an itu <br>
meN-senang-kan <br>
and meN-pity-APPL on all event
that <br>
‘What is important is that I love Sandy and
regret everything that happened.’ (Musgrave
2001:156)<br>
<br>
b. Kami juga sudah
mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah pusat<br>
2PL also already meN-talk-APPL
with government central<br>
di Jakarta soal rencana
men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br>
in Jakarta matter plan
meN-increase scholarship German<br>
untuk Indonesia… <br>
for Indonesia <br>
‘We have also spoken with the central
government in Jakarta about the plan to increase
German scholarships to Indonesia.’ (Quasthoff
& Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the
co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and
have usually made passing comments often
speculating that this feature is prevalent in
non-standard Indonesian.
<br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers know of
other languages which show this phenomenon and has
anyone written about it?
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance for any
information which you can share!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best, Simon</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
References <br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South
Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in
Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD
thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012.
Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff
& Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig.
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/"
target="_blank">http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.</p>
</div>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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