<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Hello,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about terminology here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?) postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some type of semantic criterion at work here?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Adam </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose <<a href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dear Simon,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks for your query, it’s very interesting.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal classifiers
that refer to a location. When such a verbal classifier is present, the “coreferential” NP can be expressed as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly, there is some variation. The preposition
can be maintained in the locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is present, but there is then no valency change (so the construction does not count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3<sup>rd</sup> person subject t-prefix, while transitive
verbs take some semantically more specific prefixes for 3<sup>rd</sup> person when the object is third person also (as in the second example). So this case is not exactly what you were looking for, but the presence of three alternates here is interesting:
the construction of example 3 could well be an intermediate step in the development of the applicative effect of classifiers.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">t-junopo=po</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">te</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">to<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<td width="134" valign="top" style="width:100.8pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">smeno</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3-run=pfv</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">prep</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">art.nh<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">woods</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<td width="612" colspan="4" valign="top" style="width:459.05pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:37.85pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">'S/he ran
<b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_5483397821248079755__MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<td width="128" valign="top" style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">to</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">smeno</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">art.nh</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">woods</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">S/he runs
<b>inside</b> the woods.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">te</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">to</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">smeno</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">prep</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">art.nh</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">woods</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">S/he ran inside the woods.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8 website.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Very best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Françoise ROSE<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Directrice de Recherches 2<sup>ème</sup> classe, CNRS<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">16 avenue Berthelot<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">69007 Lyon<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">FRANCE<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">(33)4 72 72 64 63<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79"><a href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f4e79"><u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br>
<b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Lingtyp members,<u></u><u></u></p>
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I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We will post a summary of responses in due course.<br>
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>From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is used to promote a previously non-core object to core.
<br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object is marked by an applicative
morpheme and thirdly that the applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and preposition, as the following examples show.
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(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br>
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b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
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c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
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d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ (2001:204)<br>
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<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2.
<br>
<br>
(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy <br>
REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy <br>
dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu <br>
meN-senang-kan <br>
and meN-pity-APPL on all event that <br>
‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret everything that happened.’ (Musgrave 2001:156)<br>
<br>
b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah pusat<br>
2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with government central<br>
di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br>
in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase scholarship German<br>
untuk Indonesia… <br>
for Indonesia <br>
‘We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’ (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in non-standard Indonesian.
<br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written about it?
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best, Simon<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
References <br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig.
<a href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/" target="_blank">http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.<u></u><u></u></p>
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-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">-- </span><span style="color:#60666d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">Simon Musgrave </span></b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">Lecturer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">Monash University</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">VIC 3800</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">Australia</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">T: +61 3 9905 8234
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif">E: <a href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu" target="_blank">
simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif"><a href="http://monash.edu/" target="_blank">monash.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities (<a href="http://aa-dh.org/" target="_blank">aaDH</a>)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<a href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/" target="_blank">Official page</a><br>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="monospace, monospace">Adam J.R. Tallman</font><div><font face="monospace, monospace">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br></font><div><font face="monospace, monospace">PhD, UT Austin</font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>