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<p>Dear Simon and others,</p>
<p>Our chapter on Jakarta Indonesian in the ValPal project discusses
the construction — cf. example (34) therein — in which the
supposed "applicative" suffix "-in" occurs in a clause in which
the non-core argument retains its flagging.<br>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p class="ReferencesT"
style="margin-left:27.35pt;text-indent:-27.35pt"><span
lang="EN-US">Conners, Thomas, John Bowden and David Gil (2015)
"Valency
Classes in Jakarta Indonesian", in A. Malchukov and B. Comrie
eds., <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Valency Classes in
the World's Languages</i>,
DeGruyter Mouton, Berlin.</span></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Similar examples occur in other
languages in our Jakarta Field Station corpus, for example in
Minangkabau (utterance ID no. 822826101244080606) in which
"agiah-an" ('give-APPL) cooccurs with a goal argument flagged with
"untuak" ('for').<br>
<br>
But I share the reservations expressed by Adam and Martin. I
would not characterize Jakarta Indonesian "-in" and Minangkabau
"-an" as Applicatives in their respective languages, and it is not
clear to me that a useful cross-linguistic comparative concept of
applicative would include these cases either— even though, as
Simon correctly points out, the corresponding form "-kan" in
Standard Indonesian is often characterized as such.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/10/2018 07:15, Simon Musgrave
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div>Dear Lingtyp members,</div>
<div><br>
I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students.
We will post a summary of responses in due course.<br>
<br>
From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian
languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to
unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix
is used to promote a previously non-core object to core. <br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001),
states that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed
using three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is
introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied
object is marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that
the applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme
and preposition, as the following examples show. <br>
<br>
(1)a.   Ahmad   npun   kolay   <br>
   Ahmad   3SG=kill   snake   <br>
   ‘Ahmad killed a snake.’   <br>
<br>
b.   Ahmad   npun   kolay   ada   peda   PREPOSITION<br>
   Ahmad   3SG=kill   snake   with   machete   <br>
   ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’   <br>
<br>
c.   Ahmad   npunak   kolay   peda   APPLICATIVE<br>
   Ahmad   3SG=kill-APPL   snake   machete   <br>
   ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’   <br>
<br>
   d.   Ahmad   npunak   kolay   ada   peda   BOTH<br>
   Ahmad   3SG=kill-APPL   snake   with   machete   <br>
   ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’   (2001:204)<br>
<br>
<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed
with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb
when it is expected to have been lost according to
conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2. <br>
<br>
(2)a.   Yang   penting   saya   sangat   men-cinta-i  Â
Sandy   <br>
   REL   important   1SG   very   meN.love.APPL  Â
Sandy   <br>
   dan    meny-enang-kan   atas   semua   ke-jadi-an  Â
itu   <br>
      meN-senang-kan               <br>
   and   meN-pity-APPL   on   all   event   that   <br>
   ‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret
everything that happened.’    (Musgrave 2001:156)<br>
<br>
   b.   Kami   juga   sudah   mem-bicara-kan   dengan
   pem-erintah    pusat<br>
   2PL   also   already   meN-talk-APPL   with  Â
government   central<br>
   di    Jakarta   soal   rencana   men-ambah  Â
beasiswa   Jerman<br>
   in   Jakarta   matter   plan   meN-increase  Â
scholarship   German<br>
   untuk   Indonesia…            <br>
   for   Indonesia            <br>
   ‘We have also spoken with the central government in
Jakarta about the plan to increase German scholarships to
Indonesia.’    (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012:
indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence
of applicatives and prepositions and have usually made
passing comments often speculating that this feature is
prevalent in non-standard Indonesian. <br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other
languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written
about it? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks in advance for any information which you can
share!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, Simon<br>
</div>
<div><br>
References <br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera
language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian.
The University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig
corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer.
University of Leipzig. <a
href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
-- <br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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