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Thanks to Matthew Dryer and Enrique Palancar for reminding us of
applicative-like constructions where a possessor of an argument
triggers applicative-like marking on a verb.<br>
<br>
So the range of possibilities is indeed broader than has been
discussed so far. But is this a "problem"?<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18.10.18 04:57, Dryer, Matthew
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:D7ED6E90.167FD%25dryer@buffalo.edu"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal">But the general possibility of something
being P-like in some respects and not P-like in other respects
is quite common, so that the very notion of P-like is
problematic, so any definition based on that notion is
problematic.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
If we say that a construction is an applicative iff the new object
is "P-like in coding" (= P-like in flagging and indexing), then
there is no problem. Recall that P is defined by its coding
properties, not by anything else.<br>
<br>
True, only one of the two Walman patterns mentioned by Matthew would
then fall under the concept "applicative", while we don't have a
term for the other one yet (the pattern where the adpossessor keeps
its genitive marking), but we could create one (e.g.
"adpossessative"?).<br>
<br>
In fact, however, it seems that such a typological concept already
exists: "prominent internal possessor" (PIP), as discussed at this
2016 conference at SOAS London:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.soas.ac.uk/linguistics/prominent-possessors/workshop/">https://www.soas.ac.uk/linguistics/prominent-possessors/workshop/</a>
(and in a forthcoming book with papers from this conference). So a
more transparent term might then be "PIP objectative".<br>
<br>
In general, I think that comparative concepts are never
"problematic" (though they are sometimes not clearly defined; and
not everyone is always happy with the matching of a label with a
concept). Of course, it may seem unnatural from a Walman perspective
to treat the two constructions differently in typology, but typology
cannot respect language-particular "naturalness" (it follows its own
agenda).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 18.10.18 04:57, Dryer, Matthew wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:D7ED6E90.167FD%25dryer@buffalo.edu"
type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the range of possibilities attested
is broader than Martin’s typology.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the following sentence from Walman
(Papua New Guinea), there is an applicative suffix on the
verb, here coding external possession:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
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<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">Kipin</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">k-ol-ro-y</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">psuem</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">ein</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">w-ri</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">nyanam.</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-variant:
small-caps;">1pl</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-variant:
small-caps;">1pl</span><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman';">-cut-<span
style="font-variant:small-caps">applic</span>-<span
style="font-variant:small-caps">3pl</span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">navel</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">trunk</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-variant:
small-caps;">gen</span><span style="font-family:
'Times New Roman';">-<span
style="font-variant:small-caps">3pl</span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="page-break-after:avoid"><span
style="font-family: 'Times New Roman';">child</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman';"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
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</table>
<p class="MsoNormal">‘We cut the umbilical cords of the
children.’ (where ‘navel’ + ‘trunk’ = ‘umbilical cord’)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just as Simon Musgrave’s example (1d) has
both an applicative or applicative-like suffix on the verb and
a preposition marking the NP, this example from Walman has
both an applicative suffix on the verb and the possessor is
marked as a possessor with the genitive form of the 3pl
pronoun. In other words, it is simultaneously internal and
external possession. And like Simon Musgrave’s (1c), it is
equally possible and in fact more common in Walman to have the
possessive NP without genitive marking, bearing the form of a
P.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What is different about this example,
however, is that unlike Simon Musgrave’s example, the verb
exhibits 3pl object agreement (in the suffix -y) with the
possessor, making it more clearly simultaneous external and
internal possession. This doesn’t seem to fit Martin’s
typology. The genitive marking on the pronoun is similar to
Martin’s adpositive type, except that we have the genitive
form of a pronoun rather than an adposition. More seriously,
however, the fact that there is object marking on the verb,
means that the possessor is P-like in that respect, though not
P-like in how it is marked on the NP, so that it is both an
applicative in Martin’s sense and sort of adpositive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But the general possibility of something
being P-like in some respects and not P-like in other respects
is quite common, so that the very notion of P-like is
problematic, so any definition based on that notion is
problematic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matthew<o:p></o:p></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Lingtyp <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday,
October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Lingtyp]
Applicative and preposition<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter
Arkadiev wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2812461539802355@sas1-fb8a605c4548.qloud-c.yandex.net"
type="cite">
There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and
Kartvelian, where arguments introduced by applicatives are
coded as ditransitive Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps.
We can certainly invent a different comparative concept
for this (e.g. "version", to adapt the traditional
Caucasological term), but the similarities between
"applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important
than differences, so it would be better to have a common
comparative concept subsuming both
</blockquote>
<br>
OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in
which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a
construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is
added (inspired by Russian "versija", or version). They are
both subtypes of a more general concept, perhaps called
"objectative".<br>
<br>
One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for
a verbal marker that adds a new adpositionally marked
argument. Then Simon Musgrave's original examples would be
objectatives, both of the applicative and the adpositive
sort.<br>
<br>
These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a
historical accident that we don't have such terms in common
use. The fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term
does not mean that there must be a natural cross-linguistic
phenomenon that corresponds to the term.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2812461539802355@sas1-fb8a605c4548.qloud-c.yandex.net"
type="cite">
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">-- </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Peter Arkadiev,
PhD</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Institute of
Slavic Studies</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Russian Academy
of Sciences</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Leninsky
prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">17.10.2018,
18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">
<haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a>:</div>
<blockquote xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">I think the answer to Adam's
question is that a construction is an applicative only
if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a
basic transitive construction.<br>
<br>
Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based
on Bowden 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:<br>
<br>
npun-ak kolay peda<br>
kill-APPL snake machete<br>
<br>
But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental
preposition (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an
applicative, from a typological perspective (= as a
comparative concept).<br>
<br>
There is no "official" definition of the (typological)
term "applicative", of course, but it is my
understanding that most people use the term in this
way. The Wikipedia article reflects this by speaking
about promotion to "(core) object":
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br>
<br>
(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks
just about "increasing the number of object arguments
by one", without making precise what is meant by
"object",
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wals.info/chapter/109">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>.
But her examples and the discussion make it clear that
she means objects coded like P-arguments.)<br>
<br>
This does not mean, of course, that the description of
Taba should not use the term "Applicative" for the
suffix -ak in all cases – but this would be a
language-specific descriptive category, somewhat like
Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when the
case in question is not used in its definitional
function (recipient of 'give').<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK0T6OixXoHc2eCv3DFwT8uyuquZYNK36qkR70mA0oFS2FOiJA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">Hello,</div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">I
know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I
think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I have
a question about terminology here. Why is it still
an applicative if a (n oblique?) postposition is
marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the
criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this
case (non-repeatability, position in clause
etc...). Or is there some type of semantic
criterion at work here?</div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">best,</div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">Adam </div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="FR">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">Dear Simon,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">Thanks for your query, it’s very
interesting.
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an
applicative construction of Mojeño that is
correlated with the presence of verbal
classifiers that refer to a location. When
such a verbal classifier is present, the
“coreferential” NP can be expressed as an
object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses
its preposition, as in the second example
below). Interestingly, there is some
variation. The preposition can be maintained
in the locative phrase, even when the verbal
classifier is present, but there is then no
valency change (so the construction does not
count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs
take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while
transitive verbs take some semantically more
specific prefixes for 3rd person when the
object is third person also (as in the second
example). So this case is not exactly what you
were looking for, but the presence of three
alternates here is interesting: the
construction of example 3 could well be an
intermediate step in the development of the
applicative effect of classifiers.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<table
style="width:459.05pt;border-collapse:collapse;"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:25.55pt;">
<td style="width:196.55pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="262">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">t-junopo=po</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">te</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">to</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:100.8pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="134">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">smeno</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:25.55pt;">
<td style="width:196.55pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="262">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">3-run=pfv</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">prep</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:100.8pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="134">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">woods</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:37.85pt;">
<td colspan="4"
style="width:459.05pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:37.85pt;"
valign="top" width="612">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">'S/he
ran
<b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<table
style="width:447pt;border-collapse:collapse;"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:269pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="359">
<p><a moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" lang="EN-US">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a></p>
</td>
<td style="width:96pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="128">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">to</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">smeno</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:269pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="359">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:96pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="128">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">woods</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td colspan="3"
style="width:447pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="596">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">S/he
runs
<b>inside</b> the woods.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<table
style="width:530pt;border-collapse:collapse;"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:276pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="368">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:75pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="100">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">te</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:97pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="129">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">to</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">smeno</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:276pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="368">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:75pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="100">
<p><b><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">prep</span></b></p>
</td>
<td style="width:97pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="129">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">woods</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td colspan="4"
style="width:530pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="707">
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">S/he
ran inside the woods.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">The slides from my presentation
can be downloaded from SWL8 website.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US">Very best,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Françoise
ROSE</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Directrice
de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Laboratoire
Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">16
avenue Berthelot</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">69007
Lyon</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">FRANCE</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">(33)4
<span>72 72 64 63</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;">De :</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br>
<b>À :</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">
LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and
preposition</span></p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p>Dear Lingtyp members,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
I am posting this query on behalf of one of my
PhD students. We will post a summary of
responses in due course.<br>
<br>
From existing studies of applicatives, only
two Austronesian languages, Taba and
Indonesian, have been documented to
unexpectedly retain a preposition when an
applicative affix is used to promote a
previously non-core object to core.<br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba
(2001), states that it is possible for the
same idea to be expressed using three
possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity
is introduced by a preposition, secondly that
the applied object is marked by an applicative
morpheme and thirdly that the applied object
can be marked by an applicative morpheme and
preposition, as the following examples show.<br>
<br>
(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br>
<br>
b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda
PREPOSITION<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda
APPLICATIVE<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada
peda BOTH<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’
(2001:204)<br>
<br>
<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative
verbs suffixed with –kan retain the
preposition directly following the verb when
it is expected to have been lost according to
conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2.<br>
<br>
(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat
men-cinta-i Sandy <br>
REL important 1SG very
meN.love.APPL Sandy <br>
dan meny-enang-kan atas semua
ke-jadi-an itu <br>
meN-senang-kan <br>
and meN-pity-APPL on all
event that <br>
‘What is important is that I love Sandy
and regret everything that happened.’
(Musgrave 2001:156)<br>
<br>
b. Kami juga sudah
mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah
pusat<br>
2PL also already meN-talk-APPL
with government central<br>
di Jakarta soal rencana
men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br>
in Jakarta matter plan
meN-increase scholarship German<br>
untuk Indonesia… <br>
for Indonesia <br>
‘We have also spoken with the central
government in Jakarta about the plan to
increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’
(Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012:
indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the
co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions
and have usually made passing comments often
speculating that this feature is prevalent in
non-standard Indonesian.<br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers know
of other languages which show this phenomenon
and has anyone written about it?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Thanks in advance for any information which
you can share!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Best, Simon</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><br>
References<br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a
South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific
Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments
in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne.
(PhD thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012.
Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff
& Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/">
http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
--</p>
<div>
<p
style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:18pt;"><span
style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">-- </span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span>Simon Musgrave </span></b><span>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span>Lecturer</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>School of Languages,
Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics</span></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Monash University</span></p>
</div>
<p><span>VIC 3800</span></p>
<div>
<p><span>Australia</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>T: <span>+61 3 9905 8234</span>
</span></p>
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<div>
<p><span>E: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu">
simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a></span></p>
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<div>
<p><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://monash.edu/">monash.edu</a></span></p>
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<p> </p>
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<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Secretary, Australasian Association for the
Digital Humanities (<a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://aa-dh.org/">aaDH</a>)</p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><br>
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href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/">Official
page</a><br>
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<div><font face="monospace,monospace">Adam J.R. Tallman</font>
<div><font face="monospace,monospace">Investigador del
Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz</font>
<div><font face="monospace,monospace">PhD, UT Austin</font></div>
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Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
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&
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Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
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</div>
</span>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
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