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<span lang="EN-US" style=" margin: 0px">Hi all, </span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style=" margin: 0px">The situation referred to by Matthew Dryer in Walman is very common in Meso-American languages with external possessor constructions based on the promotion of the possessor to argument by benefactive applicatives or by
dative indexing on the verb. This happens regardless of the family, but the only tiny difference with Walman is that there the marking of the promoted possessor is obligatorily kept internal too. </span></p>
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(On a related note: In Peninsular Spanish one says "I wash him the hands", but in rural Mexican Spanish it is common to hear "I wash him his hands". It is tempting to argue that this coding might be due to language contact with indigenous languages, but I
prefer to remain skeptical,<span> </span><span lang="EN-US" style=" margin: 0px">because I lack the necessary expertise in Spanish dialectology to evaluate its feasibility)</span><br>
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<span lang="EN-US" style=" margin: 0px">All the best,</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style=" margin: 0px">Enrique</span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style=" margin: 0px"><br>
</span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;
background:white">::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Enrique L. Palancar</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0"><br>
<br>
SeDyL (UMR8202), CNRS <br>
Campus CNRS de Paris-Villejuif<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0">7 rue Guy Môquet, 94801 Villejuif, France
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#385623;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Surrey Morphology Group</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#385623;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">University of Surrey</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#0070C0;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#385623;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#385623;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#C00000;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><cnrs.academia.edu/EnriquePalancar></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Dryer, Matthew <dryer@buffalo.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 October 2018 03:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Martin Haspelmath; lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</font>
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I think the range of possibilities attested is broader than Martin’s typology.</p>
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In the following sentence from Walman (Papua New Guinea), there is an applicative suffix on the verb, here coding external possession:</p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">Kipin</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">k-ol-ro-y</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">psuem</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">ein</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">w-ri</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">nyanam.</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'; font-variant:small-caps">1pl</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'; font-variant:small-caps">1pl</span><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">-cut-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">applic</span>-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">3pl</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">navel</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">trunk</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'; font-variant:small-caps">gen</span><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">-<span style="font-variant:small-caps">3pl</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'">child</span><span style="font-size:10pt; font-family:'Times New Roman'"></span></p>
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‘We cut the umbilical cords of the children.’ (where ‘navel’ + ‘trunk’ = ‘umbilical cord’)</p>
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Just as Simon Musgrave’s example (1d) has both an applicative or applicative-like suffix on the verb and a preposition marking the NP, this example from Walman has both an applicative suffix on the verb and the possessor is marked as a possessor with the genitive
form of the 3pl pronoun. In other words, it is simultaneously internal and external possession. And like Simon Musgrave’s (1c), it is equally possible and in fact more common in Walman to have the possessive NP without genitive marking, bearing the form of
a P.</p>
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What is different about this example, however, is that unlike Simon Musgrave’s example, the verb exhibits 3pl object agreement (in the suffix -y) with the possessor, making it more clearly simultaneous external and internal possession. This doesn’t seem to
fit Martin’s typology. The genitive marking on the pronoun is similar to Martin’s adpositive type, except that we have the genitive form of a pronoun rather than an adposition. More seriously, however, the fact that there is object marking on the verb, means
that the possessor is P-like in that respect, though not P-like in how it is marked on the NP, so that it is both an applicative in Martin’s sense and sort of adpositive.</p>
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But the general possibility of something being P-like in some respects and not P-like in other respects is quite common, so that the very notion of P-like is problematic, so any definition based on that notion is problematic.</p>
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Matthew</p>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and Kartvelian, where arguments introduced by applicatives are coded as ditransitive Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps. We can certainly invent a different comparative concept for
this (e.g. "version", to adapt the traditional Caucasological term), but the similarities between "applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important than differences, so it would be better to have a common comparative concept subsuming both
</blockquote>
<br>
OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added (inspired by Russian "versija", or version). They are both subtypes of a
more general concept, perhaps called "objectative".<br>
<br>
One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for a verbal marker that adds a new adpositionally marked argument. Then Simon Musgrave's original examples would be objectatives, both of the applicative and the adpositive sort.<br>
<br>
These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a historical accident that we don't have such terms in common use. The fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term does not mean that there must be a natural cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds
to the term.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>-- </div>
<div>Peter Arkadiev, PhD</div>
<div>Institute of Slavic Studies</div>
<div>Russian Academy of Sciences</div>
<div>Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow</div>
<div><a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a></div>
<div><a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
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<div>17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <a class="x_moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">
<haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a>:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a basic transitive construction.<br>
<br>
Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:<br>
<br>
npun-ak kolay peda<br>
kill-APPL snake machete<br>
<br>
But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).<br>
<br>
There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this by speaking about promotion to "(core) object":
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br>
<br>
(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making precise what is meant by "object",
<a href="https://wals.info/chapter/109">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>. But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means objects coded like P-arguments.)<br>
<br>
This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases – but this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when
the case in question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of 'give').<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130">Hello,</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130"> </div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130">I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about terminology here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?) postposition
is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some type of semantic criterion at work here?</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130"> </div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130">best,</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130"> </div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace; color:#4c1130">Adam </div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose <<a href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left:1px #ccc
solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="FR">
<div>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Simon,</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thanks for your query, it’s very interesting.
</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal classifiers that refer to a location. When
such a verbal classifier is present, the “coreferential” NP can be expressed as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly, there is some variation. The preposition can be maintained in the
locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is present, but there is then no valency change (so the construction does not count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take some semantically more
specific prefixes for 3rd person when the object is third person also (as in the second example). So this case is not exactly what you were looking for, but the presence of three alternates here is interesting: the construction of example 3 could well be an
intermediate step in the development of the applicative effect of classifiers.</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">t-junopo=po</span></p>
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<p><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">te</span></b></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">to</span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">smeno</span></p>
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<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">3-run=pfv</span></p>
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<td valign="top" width="108" style="width:80.85pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:25.55pt">
<p><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">prep</span></b></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="108" style="width:80.85pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:25.55pt">
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="134" style="width:100.8pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:25.55pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">woods</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:37.85pt">
<td colspan="4" valign="top" width="612" style="width:459.05pt; padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt; height:37.85pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">'S/he ran
<b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<table width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:447pt; border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td valign="top" width="359" style="width:269pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="128" style="width:96pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">to</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">smeno</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td valign="top" width="359" style="width:269pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="128" style="width:96pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">woods</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td colspan="3" valign="top" width="596" style="width:447pt; padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">S/he runs
<b>inside</b> the woods.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<table width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:530pt; border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td valign="top" width="368" style="width:276pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="100" style="width:75pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">te</span></b></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="129" style="width:97pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">to</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">smeno</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td valign="top" width="368" style="width:276pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="100" style="width:75pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">prep</span></b></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="129" style="width:97pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">art.nh</span></p>
</td>
<td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt; padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm
5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">woods</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td colspan="4" valign="top" width="707" style="width:530pt; padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt; height:22.35pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">S/he ran inside the woods.</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8 website.</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Very best,</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Françoise ROSE</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Directrice de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">16 avenue Berthelot</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">69007 Lyon</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">FRANCE</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">(33)4
<span>72 72 64 63</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,78,121)"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a target="_blank" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br>
<b>À :</b> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span></p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<p>Dear Lingtyp members,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We will post a summary of responses in due course.<br>
<br>
>From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is used to promote a previously non-core object to core.<br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object is marked by an applicative
morpheme and thirdly that the applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and preposition, as the following examples show.<br>
<br>
(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br>
<br>
b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ (2001:204)<br>
<br>
<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2.<br>
<br>
(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy <br>
REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy <br>
dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu <br>
meN-senang-kan <br>
and meN-pity-APPL on all event that <br>
‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret everything that happened.’ (Musgrave 2001:156)<br>
<br>
b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah pusat<br>
2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with government central<br>
di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br>
in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase scholarship German<br>
untuk Indonesia… <br>
for Indonesia <br>
‘We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’ (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in non-standard Indonesian.<br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written about it?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Best, Simon</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
References<br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig.
<a target="_blank" href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/">http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
--</p>
<div>
<p style="margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:0cm; margin-left:0cm; margin-bottom:0.0001pt; line-height:18pt">
<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif; color:rgb(34,34,34)">-- </span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span>Simon Musgrave </span></b><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span>Lecturer</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span>School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics</span></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Monash University</span></p>
</div>
<p><span>VIC 3800</span></p>
<div>
<p><span>Australia</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>T: <span>+61 3 9905 8234</span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>E: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu">simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span><a target="_blank" href="http://monash.edu/">monash.edu</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities (<a target="_blank" href="http://aa-dh.org/">aaDH</a>)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
<a target="_blank" href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/">Official page</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
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<p> </p>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<div> </div>
--
<div><font face="monospace,monospace">Adam J.R. Tallman</font>
<div><font face="monospace,monospace">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz</font>
<div><font face="monospace,monospace">PhD, UT Austin</font></div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<pre>--
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
,
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
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