<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Thank you, Matthew, this is an excellent point and a very useful typology, which, I hope, will be taken up. What we often need are rather a general label for a broader class of phenomena and derived sub-labels identifying particular subtypes based on a particular property, rather than opaque and unrelated terms for everyting.</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Best,</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Peter</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">-- </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Peter Arkadiev, PhD</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Institute of Slavic Studies</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Russian Academy of Sciences</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">19.10.2018, 06:13, "Dryer, Matthew" <dryer@buffalo.edu>:</div><blockquote xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" type="cite"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;"><div><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">Setting aside the issues that I raised in my previous email about the fact that something can be P-like in some respects but not in others, there is a separate issue regarding different types of applicatives. Martin’s proposed terminology whereby ‘<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman";background-color:white;">"applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added</span>’, a problem arises with the fact that in many languages P’s and R’s are treated the same way and in such languages, there is often an applicative that adds an argument that is thus simultaneously P-like and R-like. Fortunately this is easily fixed, but it is useful to look at the logical space of possible applicatives and have labels for each. Whether all of these are attested is not clear. So here is a list of possible types:</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A PR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and R’s are treated the same way (and differently from T’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and R’s.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A PT-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and T’s are treated the same way (and differently from R’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and T’s.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">An R-applicative is an applicative in a language in which R’s are treated differently from P’s and T’s and the added argument is treated like an R.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A T-applicative is an applicative in a language in which T’s are treated differently from P’s and R’s and the added argument is treated like a T.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">The four possibilities above all appear to be attested but two other logical possibilities are</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A P-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s are treated differently from both R’s and T’s and the added argument is treated like a P.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A PTR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s, T’s and R’s are treated the same way and the added argument is treated like them.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">Martin’s proposed terminology would not treat R-applicatives as applicatives. The problem is that there are various perhaps even many languages with T-applicatives and these have always been called applicatives. It would be very strange to treat T-applicatives but not R-applicatives as applicatives when they are analogous to each other and to treat neither as applicatives would be proposing a new use of the term that would only be confusing.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">And although I think that it is a mistake to dwell too much on terminological issues, I would suggest that one of the basic principles in proposing new terminology is that it be as transparent as possible. My term “R-applicative” is transparent, at least when seen in contrast with the other types, while I find Martin’s proposed “versiative” rather opaque.</p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p><p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">Matthew</p></div><div> </div><div style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt;"><span><span style="font-weight:bold;">From: </span>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><br /><span style="font-weight:bold;">Date: </span>Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM<br /><span style="font-weight:bold;">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br /><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject: </span>Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span></div><div> </div><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span>On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<br />There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and Kartvelian, where arguments introduced by applicatives are coded as ditransitive Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps. We can certainly invent a different comparative concept for this (e.g. "version", to adapt the traditional Caucasological term), but the similarities between "applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important than differences, so it would be better to have a common comparative concept subsuming both<br />OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added (inspired by Russian "versija", or version). They are both subtypes of a more general concept, perhaps called "objectative".<br /><br />One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for a verbal marker that adds a new adpositionally marked argument. Then Simon Musgrave's original examples would be objectatives, both of the applicative and the adpositive sort.<br /><br />These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a historical accident that we don't have such terms in common use. The fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term does not mean that there must be a natural cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds to the term.<br /><br />Best,<br />Martin</span><br /> <blockquote cite="mid:2812461539802355@sas1-fb8a605c4548.qloud-c.yandex.net" type="cite"><div><span>-- </span></div><div><span>Peter Arkadiev, PhD</span></div><div><span>Institute of Slavic Studies</span></div><div><span>Russian Academy of Sciences</span></div><div><span>Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow</span></div><div><span><a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a></span></div><div><span><a href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a></span></div><div><span> </span></div><div><span> </span></div><div><span> </span></div><div><span>17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de"> <haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a>:</span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span>I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a basic transitive construction.<br /><br />Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:<br /><br />npun-ak kolay peda<br />kill-APPL snake machete<br /><br />But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).<br /><br />There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this by speaking about promotion to "(core) object": <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice"> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br /><br />(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making precise what is meant by "object", <a href="https://wals.info/chapter/109">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>. But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means objects coded like P-arguments.)<br /><br />This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases – but this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when the case in question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of 'give').<br /><br />Best,<br />Martin<br /><br /> </span><div><span>On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:</span></div><span> </span><blockquote cite="mid:CAK0T6OixXoHc2eCv3DFwT8uyuquZYNK36qkR70mA0oFS2FOiJA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite"><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>Hello,</span></div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span> </span></div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about terminology here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?) postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some type of semantic criterion at work here?</span></div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span> </span></div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>best,</span></div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span> </span></div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>Adam </span></div></blockquote><span> </span></div><span> </span><div><span>On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose <<a href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>> wrote:</span></div><span> </span><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="FR"><div><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Dear Simon,</span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Thanks for your query, it’s very interesting. </span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal classifiers that refer to a location. When such a verbal classifier is present, the “coreferential” NP can be expressed as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly, there is some variation. The preposition can be maintained in the locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is present, but there is then no valency change (so the construction does not count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take some semantically more specific prefixes for 3rd person when the object is third person also (as in the second example). So this case is not exactly what you were looking for, but the presence of three alternates here is interesting: the construction of example 3 could well be an intermediate step in the development of the applicative effect of classifiers.</span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><table width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:459.05pt;border-collapse:collapse;"><tbody><tr style="height:25.55pt;"><td valign="top" width="262" style="width:196.55pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">t-junopo=po</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="108" style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">te</span></b></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="108" style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">to</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="134" style="width:100.8pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">smeno</span></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:25.55pt;"><td valign="top" width="262" style="width:196.55pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">3-run=pfv</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="108" style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">prep</span></b></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="108" style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">art.nh</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="134" style="width:100.8pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">woods</span></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:37.85pt;"><td colspan="4" valign="top" width="612" style="width:459.05pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:37.85pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">'S/he ran <b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'</span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><table width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:447pt;border-collapse:collapse;"><tbody><tr style="height:22.35pt;"><td valign="top" width="359" style="width:269pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><a><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="128" style="width:96pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">to</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">smeno</span></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:22.35pt;"><td valign="top" width="359" style="width:269pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="128" style="width:96pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">art.nh</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">woods</span></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:22.35pt;"><td colspan="3" valign="top" width="596" style="width:447pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">S/he runs <b>inside</b> the woods.</span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><table width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:530pt;border-collapse:collapse;"><tbody><tr style="height:22.35pt;"><td valign="top" width="368" style="width:276pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="100" style="width:75pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">te</span></b></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="129" style="width:97pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">to</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">smeno</span></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:22.35pt;"><td valign="top" width="368" style="width:276pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="100" style="width:75pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">prep</span></b></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="129" style="width:97pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">art.nh</span></span></p></td><td valign="top" width="109" style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">woods</span></span></p></td></tr><tr style="height:22.35pt;"><td colspan="4" valign="top" width="707" style="width:530pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;"><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">S/he ran inside the woods.</span></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8 website.</span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Very best,</span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Françoise ROSE</span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Directrice de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS</span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">16 avenue Berthelot</span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">69007 Lyon</span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">FRANCE</span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">(33)4 <span><span>72 72 64 63</span></span></span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,78,121);"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span></span></p><p><span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p><p><span><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a target="_blank" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] <b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br /><b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br /><b>À :</b> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org"> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br /><b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span></span></p><p><span> </span></p><div><p><span>Dear Lingtyp members,</span></p></div><div><p><br /><span>I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We will post a summary of responses in due course.<br /><br />From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is used to promote a previously non-core object to core.<br />Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object is marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that the applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and preposition, as the following examples show.<br /><br />(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br /> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br /> ‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br /><br />b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION<br /> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete <br /> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br /><br />c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE<br /> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete <br /> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br /><br /> d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH<br /> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete <br /> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ (2001:204)<br /><br /><br />Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2.<br /><br />(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy <br /> REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy <br /> dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu <br /> meN-senang-kan <br /> and meN-pity-APPL on all event that <br /> ‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret everything that happened.’ (Musgrave 2001:156)<br /><br /> b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah pusat<br /> 2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with government central<br /> di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br /> in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase scholarship German<br /> untuk Indonesia… <br /> for Indonesia <br /> ‘We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’ (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br /><br /><br />Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in non-standard Indonesian.<br /><br />Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written about it?</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!</span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>Best, Simon</span></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><br /><span>References<br />Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br />Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).<br />Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig. <a target="_blank" href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/"> http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.</span></p></div><div><p><br /><span>--</span></p><div><p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:18pt;"><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);">-- </span></span></p><div><p><span><b><span>Simon Musgrave </span></b><span> </span></span></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span><span>Lecturer</span></span></p></div><div><p><span><b><span>School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics</span></b></span></p></div><div><p><span><span>Monash University</span></span></p></div><p><span><span>VIC 3800</span></span></p><div><p><span><span>Australia</span></span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span><span>T: <span><span>+61 3 9905 8234</span></span> </span></span></p></div><div><p><span><span>E: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu"> simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a></span></span></p></div><div><p><span><span><a target="_blank" href="http://monash.edu/">monash.edu</a></span></span></p></div><div><p><span> </span></p></div><p><span> </span></p></div><div><p><span>Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities (<a target="_blank" href="http://aa-dh.org/">aaDH</a>)</span></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><br /><span><a target="_blank" href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/">Official page</a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </span></p><div><p><span> </span></p></div></div><span>_______________________________________________<br />Lingtyp mailing list<br /><a target="_blank" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br /><a target="_blank" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span></div></div></div></blockquote><span> </span><div><span> </span></div><span> -- </span><div><span><font face="monospace,monospace">Adam J.R. Tallman</font> </span><div><span><font face="monospace,monospace">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz</font> </span><div><span><font face="monospace,monospace">PhD, UT Austin</font></span></div><span> </span></div><span> </span></div><span> </span><pre><span>_______________________________________________
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Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</span></pre><span> , </span><p><span>_______________________________________________<br />Lingtyp mailing list<br /><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br /><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span></p><span> </span></blockquote><span> </span><pre><span>--
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</span></pre><span> </span></div></div>,<p>_______________________________________________<br />Lingtyp mailing list<br /><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br /><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></p></blockquote>