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Yes, transparent terms are ideal, but I think it's even more
important to have terms that mean what they always meant. Changing
the meaning of a term just because one realizes that the phenomena
are richer is not a good idea, because it introduces polysemy (and
thus leads to confusion).<br>
<br>
There is no standard nomenclature in our discipline, so for most
people, most traditional terms have narrow meanings that are
determined by stereotypes. These stereotypes are typically
determined by a few well-known languages that come up in textbooks
again and again.<br>
<br>
For example, "serial verb construction" (SVC), "incorporation",
"labile verb", and "passive" are other well-known terms for
phenomena that cover only parts of larger domains. SVCs have no
linker between verbs but are closely related to other multi-verb
construction types that have such a linker but otherwise SVC-like.
What should we do? Extend the meaning of "SVC" beyond the stereotype
and start talking about "unlinked SVCs" and "linked SVCs"?<br>
<br>
My feeling is that if a well-known term has no clear definition but
many people use the term assuming that there is a definition (as
happens all the time in linguistics), it is best to give it a narrow
definition and introduce a new term for the larger domain.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19.10.18 10:51, Peter Arkadiev
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:6000501539939070@sas1-890ba5c2334a.qloud-c.yandex.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Thank you, Matthew, this
is an excellent point and a very useful typology, which, I hope,
will be taken up. What we often need are rather a general label
for a broader class of phenomena and derived sub-labels
identifying particular subtypes based on a particular property,
rather than opaque and unrelated terms for everyting.</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Best,</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Peter</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">-- </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Peter Arkadiev, PhD</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Institute of Slavic
Studies</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Russian Academy of
Sciences</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Leninsky prospekt 32-A
119991 Moscow</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">19.10.2018, 06:13,
"Dryer, Matthew" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu"><dryer@buffalo.edu></a>:</div>
<blockquote xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" type="cite">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;">
<div>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">Setting
aside the issues that I raised in my previous email about
the fact that something can be P-like in some respects but
not in others, there is a separate issue regarding
different types of applicatives. Martin’s proposed
terminology whereby ‘<span style="font-family:"Times
New Roman";background-color:white;">"applicative"
is a construction in which a new P-like object is added,
and "versiative" is a construction in which a new
(indirective-)R-like object is added</span>’, a problem
arises with the fact that in many languages P’s and R’s
are treated the same way and in such languages, there is
often an applicative that adds an argument that is thus
simultaneously P-like and R-like. Fortunately this is
easily fixed, but it is useful to look at the logical
space of possible applicatives and have labels for each.
Whether all of these are attested is not clear. So here is
a list of possible types:</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A
PR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which
P’s and R’s are treated the same way (and differently
from T’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and
R’s.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A
PT-applicative is an applicative in a language in which
P’s and T’s are treated the same way (and differently from
R’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and T’s.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">An
R-applicative is an applicative in a language in which R’s
are treated differently from P’s and T’s and the added
argument is treated like an R.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A
T-applicative is an applicative in a language in which T’s
are treated differently from P’s and R’s and the added
argument is treated like a T.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">The
four possibilities above all appear to be attested but two
other logical possibilities are</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A
P-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s
are treated differently from both R’s and T’s and the
added argument is treated like a P.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">A
PTR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which
P’s, T’s and R’s are treated the same way and the added
argument is treated like them.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">Martin’s
proposed terminology would not treat R-applicatives as
applicatives. The problem is that there are various
perhaps even many languages with T-applicatives and these
have always been called applicatives. It would be very
strange to treat T-applicatives but not R-applicatives as
applicatives when they are analogous to each other and to
treat neither as applicatives would be proposing a new use
of the term that would only be confusing.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">And
although I think that it is a mistake to dwell too much on
terminological issues, I would suggest that one of the
basic principles in proposing new terminology is that it
be as transparent as possible. My term “R-applicative” is
transparent, at least when seen in contrast with the other
types, while I find Martin’s proposed “versiative” rather
opaque.</p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;"> </p>
<p
style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri;">Matthew</p>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium
none;BORDER-LEFT:medium
none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df
1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt;"><span><span
style="font-weight:bold;">From: </span>Lingtyp <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Date: </span>Wednesday,
October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">To: </span>"<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject: </span>Re:
[Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span>On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev
wrote:<br>
There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and
Kartvelian, where arguments introduced by applicatives are
coded as ditransitive Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps.
We can certainly invent a different comparative concept
for this (e.g. "version", to adapt the traditional
Caucasological term), but the similarities between
"applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important
than differences, so it would be better to have a common
comparative concept subsuming both<br>
OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction
in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is
a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object
is added (inspired by Russian "versija", or version). They
are both subtypes of a more general concept, perhaps
called "objectative".<br>
<br>
One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive",
for a verbal marker that adds a new adpositionally marked
argument. Then Simon Musgrave's original examples would be
objectatives, both of the applicative and the adpositive
sort.<br>
<br>
These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just
a historical accident that we don't have such terms in
common use. The fact that "applicative" is a commonly used
term does not mean that there must be a natural
cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds to the term.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin</span><br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2812461539802355@sas1-fb8a605c4548.qloud-c.yandex.net"
type="cite">
<div><span>-- </span></div>
<div><span>Peter Arkadiev, PhD</span></div>
<div><span>Institute of Slavic Studies</span></div>
<div><span>Russian Academy of Sciences</span></div>
<div><span>Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow</span></div>
<div><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a></span></div>
<div><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a></span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span> </span></div>
<div><span>17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">
<haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a>:</span></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span>I think the answer to
Adam's question is that a construction is an
applicative only if the new object is coded like the
P-argument of a basic transitive construction.<br>
<br>
Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based
on Bowden 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:<br>
<br>
npun-ak kolay peda<br>
kill-APPL snake machete<br>
<br>
But when the instrument 'machete' has its
instrumental preposition (ada peda 'with a
machete'), it is not an applicative, from a
typological perspective (= as a comparative
concept).<br>
<br>
There is no "official" definition of the
(typological) term "applicative", of course, but it
is my understanding that most people use the term in
this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this by
speaking about promotion to "(core) object": <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br>
<br>
(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks
just about "increasing the number of object
arguments by one", without making precise what is
meant by "object", <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wals.info/chapter/109">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>.
But her examples and the discussion make it clear
that she means objects coded like P-arguments.)<br>
<br>
This does not mean, of course, that the description
of Taba should not use the term "Applicative" for
the suffix -ak in all cases – but this would be a
language-specific descriptive category, somewhat
like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also
when the case in question is not used in its
definitional function (recipient of 'give').<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
</span>
<div><span>On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman
wrote:</span></div>
<span> </span>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK0T6OixXoHc2eCv3DFwT8uyuquZYNK36qkR70mA0oFS2FOiJA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>Hello,</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>I
know of some phenomena that is similar to this
(I think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I
have a question about terminology here. Why is
it still an applicative if a (n oblique?)
postposition is marked on the "promoted"
argument? What are the criteria that identify it
as "promoted" in this case (non-repeatability,
position in clause etc...). Or is there some
type of semantic criterion at work here?</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>best,</span></div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span> </span></div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"><span>Adam </span></div>
</blockquote>
<span> </span></div>
<span> </span>
<div><span>On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise
Rose <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
<span> </span>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="FR">
<div>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">Dear Simon,</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">Thanks for your query, it’s
very interesting. </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on
an applicative construction of Mojeño that
is correlated with the presence of verbal
classifiers that refer to a location. When
such a verbal classifier is present, the
“coreferential” NP can be expressed as an
object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses
its preposition, as in the second example
below). Interestingly, there is some
variation. The preposition can be maintained
in the locative phrase, even when the verbal
classifier is present, but there is then no
valency change (so the construction does not
count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs
take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while
transitive verbs take some semantically more
specific prefixes for 3rd person when the
object is third person also (as in the
second example). So this case is not exactly
what you were looking for, but the presence
of three alternates here is interesting: the
construction of example 3 could well be an
intermediate step in the development of the
applicative effect of classifiers.</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<table
style="width:459.05pt;border-collapse:collapse;"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:25.55pt;">
<td style="width:196.55pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="262">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">t-junopo=po</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><span><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">te</span></b></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">to</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:100.8pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="134">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">smeno</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:25.55pt;">
<td style="width:196.55pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="262">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">3-run=pfv</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><span><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">prep</span></b></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:80.85pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="108">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">art.nh</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:100.8pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:25.55pt;"
valign="top" width="134">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">woods</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:37.85pt;">
<td colspan="4"
style="width:459.05pt;padding:0.75pt
5.75pt 0cm 5.75pt;height:37.85pt;"
valign="top" width="612">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">'S/he ran <b>to/in/from</b>
the woods.'</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<table
style="width:447pt;border-collapse:collapse;"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:269pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="359">
<p><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></a></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:96pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="128">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">to</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">smeno</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:269pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="359">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:96pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="128">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">art.nh</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">woods</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td colspan="3"
style="width:447pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="596">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">S/he runs <b>inside</b>
the woods.</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<table
style="width:530pt;border-collapse:collapse;"
width="0" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:276pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="368">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:75pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="100">
<p><span><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">te</span></b></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:97pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="129">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">to</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">smeno</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td style="width:276pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="368">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:75pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="100">
<p><span><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">prep</span></b></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:97pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="129">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">art.nh</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:82pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="109">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">woods</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt;">
<td colspan="4"
style="width:530pt;padding:0.75pt 5.75pt
0cm 5.75pt;height:22.35pt;" valign="top"
width="707">
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">S/he ran inside the
woods.</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">The slides from my presentation
can be downloaded from SWL8 website.</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US">Very best,</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Françoise
ROSE</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Directrice
de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">Laboratoire
Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">16
avenue Berthelot</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">69007
Lyon</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">FRANCE</span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);">(33)4
<span><span>72 72 64 63</span></span></span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,78,121);"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);"
lang="EN-US"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;">De :</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018
07:16<br>
<b>À :</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">
LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and
preposition</span></span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p><span>Dear Lingtyp members,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
<span>I am posting this query on behalf of one
of my PhD students. We will post a summary
of responses in due course.<br>
<br>
From existing studies of applicatives, only
two Austronesian languages, Taba and
Indonesian, have been documented to
unexpectedly retain a preposition when an
applicative affix is used to promote a
previously non-core object to core.<br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of
Taba (2001), states that it is possible for
the same idea to be expressed using three
possibilities. Firstly, that the third
entity is introduced by a preposition,
secondly that the applied object is marked
by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that
the applied object can be marked by an
applicative morpheme and preposition, as the
following examples show.<br>
<br>
(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br>
<br>
b. Ahmad npun kolay ada
peda PREPOSITION<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a
machete.’ <br>
<br>
c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda
APPLICATIVE<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake
machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a
machete.’ <br>
<br>
d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada
peda BOTH<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake
with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a
machete.’ (2001:204)<br>
<br>
<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with
applicative verbs suffixed with –kan retain
the preposition directly following the verb
when it is expected to have been lost
according to conventional grammar rules, as
shown in 2.<br>
<br>
(2)a. Yang penting saya
sangat men-cinta-i Sandy <br>
REL important 1SG very
meN.love.APPL Sandy <br>
dan meny-enang-kan atas
semua ke-jadi-an itu <br>
meN-senang-kan <br>
and meN-pity-APPL on all
event that <br>
‘What is important is that I love Sandy
and regret everything that happened.’
(Musgrave 2001:156)<br>
<br>
b. Kami juga sudah
mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah
pusat<br>
2PL also already
meN-talk-APPL with government
central<br>
di Jakarta soal rencana
men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br>
in Jakarta matter plan
meN-increase scholarship German<br>
untuk Indonesia… <br>
for Indonesia <br>
‘We have also spoken with the central
government in Jakarta about the plan to
increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’
(Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012:
indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted
the co-occurrence of applicatives and
prepositions and have usually made passing
comments often speculating that this feature
is prevalent in non-standard Indonesian.<br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers
know of other languages which show this
phenomenon and has anyone written about it?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Thanks in advance for any information
which you can share!</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Best, Simon</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><br>
<span>References<br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a
South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific
Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments
in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne.
(PhD thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald.
2012. Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe
Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of
Leipzig. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/">
http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><br>
<span>--</span></p>
<div>
<p
style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;line-height:18pt;"><span><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);">-- </span></span></p>
<div>
<p><span><b><span>Simon Musgrave </span></b><span>
</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><span><span>Lecturer</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span><b><span>School of Languages,
Literatures, Cultures and
Linguistics</span></b></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span><span>Monash University</span></span></p>
</div>
<p><span><span>VIC 3800</span></span></p>
<div>
<p><span><span>Australia</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span><span>T: <span><span>+61 3 9905
8234</span></span>
</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span><span>E: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu">
simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span><span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://monash.edu/">monash.edu</a></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span>Secretary, Australasian Association
for the Digital Humanities (<a
moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
href="http://aa-dh.org/">aaDH</a>)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;"><br>
<span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/">Official
page</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div>
<p><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<span>_______________________________________________<br>
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href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span> </span>
<div><span> </span></div>
<span> -- </span>
<div><span><font face="monospace,monospace">Adam J.R.
Tallman</font> </span>
<div><span><font face="monospace,monospace">Investigador
del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz</font>
</span>
<div><span><font face="monospace,monospace">PhD, UT
Austin</font></span></div>
<span> </span></div>
<span> </span></div>
<span> </span>
<pre><span>_______________________________________________
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span></pre>
<span> </span></blockquote>
<span> </span>
<pre><span>--
Martin Haspelmath (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</span></pre>
<span> , </span>
<p><span>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span></p>
<span> </span></blockquote>
<span> </span>
<pre><span>--
Martin Haspelmath (<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</span></pre>
<span> </span></div>
</div>
,
<p>_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
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