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<p class="MsoNormal">As emphasized by both Martin H. and Matthew D., clarity and transparency are important criteria for<br>
determining the definition of a crosslinguistically applicable comparative concept. While these are<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">necessary criteria, they are not sufficient ones. It seems to me that the only consideration to help us<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">choose from among the various alternative definitions listed by Matthew is typological implications.
<br>
If a given concept can be shown to figure in crosslinguistic generalizations either by serving
<br>
as an implicans or by serving as an implicatum, it is it a useful one. If it is not a term in typological
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implications, it is not useful.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Is this correct?<br>
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Best,<br>
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Edith Moravcsik<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 19, 2018 4:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Peter Arkadiev <peterarkadiev@yandex.ru>; Dryer, Matthew <dryer@buffalo.edu>; lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Yes, transparent terms are ideal, but I think it's even more important to have terms that mean what they always meant. Changing the meaning of a term just because one realizes that the phenomena are richer is
not a good idea, because it introduces polysemy (and thus leads to confusion).<br>
<br>
There is no standard nomenclature in our discipline, so for most people, most traditional terms have narrow meanings that are determined by stereotypes. These stereotypes are typically determined by a few well-known languages that come up in textbooks again
and again.<br>
<br>
For example, "serial verb construction" (SVC), "incorporation", "labile verb", and "passive" are other well-known terms for phenomena that cover only parts of larger domains. SVCs have no linker between verbs but are closely related to other multi-verb construction
types that have such a linker but otherwise SVC-like. What should we do? Extend the meaning of "SVC" beyond the stereotype and start talking about "unlinked SVCs" and "linked SVCs"?<br>
<br>
My feeling is that if a well-known term has no clear definition but many people use the term assuming that there is a definition (as happens all the time in linguistics), it is best to give it a narrow definition and introduce a new term for the larger domain.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 19.10.18 10:51, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you, Matthew, this is an excellent point and a very useful typology, which, I hope, will be taken up. What we often need are rather a general label for a broader class of phenomena and derived sub-labels identifying particular subtypes
based on a particular property, rather than opaque and unrelated terms for everyting.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter Arkadiev, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Institute of Slavic Studies<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Russian Academy of Sciences<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">19.10.2018, 06:13, "Dryer, Matthew" <a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">
<dryer@buffalo.edu></a>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Setting aside the issues that I raised in my previous email about the fact that something can be P-like in some respects but not in others, there is a separate issue regarding different
types of applicatives. Martin’s proposed terminology whereby ‘"applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added’, a problem arises with the fact that
in many languages P’s and R’s are treated the same way and in such languages, there is often an applicative that adds an argument that is thus simultaneously P-like and R-like. Fortunately this is easily fixed, but it is useful to look at the logical space
of possible applicatives and have labels for each. Whether all of these are attested is not clear. So here is a list of possible types:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">A PR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and R’s are treated the same way (and differently from T’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and R’s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">A PT-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and T’s are treated the same way (and differently from R’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and T’s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">An R-applicative is an applicative in a language in which R’s are treated differently from P’s and T’s and the added argument is treated like an R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">A T-applicative is an applicative in a language in which T’s are treated differently from P’s and R’s and the added argument is treated like a T.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">The four possibilities above all appear to be attested but two other logical possibilities are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">A P-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s are treated differently from both R’s and T’s and the added argument is treated like a P.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">A PTR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s, T’s and R’s are treated the same way and the added argument is treated like them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Martin’s proposed terminology would not treat R-applicatives as applicatives. The problem is that there are various perhaps even many languages with T-applicatives and these have always
been called applicatives. It would be very strange to treat T-applicatives but not R-applicatives as applicatives when they are analogous to each other and to treat neither as applicatives would be proposing a new use of the term that would only be confusing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">And although I think that it is a mistake to dwell too much on terminological issues, I would suggest that one of the basic principles in proposing new terminology is that it be as transparent
as possible. My term “R-applicative” is transparent, at least when seen in contrast with the other types, while I find Martin’s proposed “versiative” rather opaque.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Matthew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b>Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<br>
There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and Kartvelian, where arguments introduced by applicatives are coded as ditransitive Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps. We can certainly invent a different comparative concept for this (e.g. "version",
to adapt the traditional Caucasological term), but the similarities between "applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important than differences, so it would be better to have a common comparative concept subsuming both<br>
OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added (inspired by Russian "versija", or version). They are both subtypes of a
more general concept, perhaps called "objectative".<br>
<br>
One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for a verbal marker that adds a new adpositionally marked argument. Then Simon Musgrave's original examples would be objectatives, both of the applicative and the adpositive sort.<br>
<br>
These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a historical accident that we don't have such terms in common use. The fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term does not mean that there must be a natural cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds
to the term.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Peter Arkadiev, PhD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Institute of Slavic Studies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Russian Academy of Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"><a href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"><a href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath"
<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de"><haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a basic transitive construction.<br>
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Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:<br>
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npun-ak kolay peda<br>
kill-APPL snake machete<br>
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But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).<br>
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There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this by speaking about promotion to "(core) object":
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice</a>.<br>
<br>
(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making precise what is meant by "object",
<a href="https://wals.info/chapter/109">https://wals.info/chapter/109</a>. But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means objects coded like P-arguments.)<br>
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This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases – but this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when
the case in question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of 'give').<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Hello,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about terminology here. Why is it still an applicative
if a (n oblique?) postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some type of semantic criterion at work here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Adam <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose <<a href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Dear Simon,</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks for your query, it’s very interesting. </span>
<span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal classifiers that refer to a location. When such a verbal classifier is present, the “coreferential” NP can be expressed
as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly, there is some variation. The preposition can be maintained in the locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is present, but there is
then no valency change (so the construction does not count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take some semantically more specific prefixes for 3rd person when the object is third person also (as
in the second example). So this case is not exactly what you were looking for, but the presence of three alternates here is interesting: the construction of example 3 could well be an intermediate step in the development of the applicative effect of classifiers.</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">t-junopo=po</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style="color:#1F497D">te</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">to</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">smeno</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">3-run=pfv</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style="color:#1F497D">prep</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">art.nh</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="color:#1F497D">woods</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<tr style="height:37.85pt">
<td width="612" colspan="4" valign="top" style="width:459.05pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:37.85pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">'S/he ran <b>to/in/from</b> the woods.'</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="596" style="width:447.0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td width="359" valign="top" style="width:269.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">ñi-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="128" valign="top" style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">to</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">smeno</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td width="359" valign="top" style="width:269.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">3m-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="128" valign="top" style="width:96.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">art.nh</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">woods</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td width="596" colspan="3" valign="top" style="width:447.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">S/he runs <b>inside</b> the woods.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="707" style="width:530.0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td width="368" valign="top" style="width:276.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">t-jumpo<b>-je</b>-cho</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="100" valign="top" style="width:75.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><b><span style="color:#1F497D">te</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="129" valign="top" style="width:97.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">to</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">smeno</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td width="368" valign="top" style="width:276.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">3-run<b>-clf:interior</b>-act</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="100" valign="top" style="width:75.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><b><span style="color:#1F497D">prep</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="129" valign="top" style="width:97.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">art.nh</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width="109" valign="top" style="width:82.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">woods</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:22.35pt">
<td width="707" colspan="4" valign="top" style="width:530.0pt;padding:.75pt 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt;height:22.35pt">
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">S/he ran inside the woods.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8 website.</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D">Very best,</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Françoise ROSE</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Directrice de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">16 avenue Berthelot</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">69007 Lyon</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">FRANCE</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D">(33)4 72 72 64 63</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F4E79"><a href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a></span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b><span lang="FR">De :</span></b><span lang="FR"> Lingtyp [mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Simon Musgrave<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br>
<b>À :</b> <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Dear Lingtyp members,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We will post a summary of responses in due course.<br>
<br>
From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is used to promote a previously non-core object to core.<br>
Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object is marked by an applicative
morpheme and thirdly that the applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and preposition, as the following examples show.<br>
<br>
(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay <br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake.’ <br>
<br>
b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ <br>
<br>
d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH<br>
Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete <br>
‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ (2001:204)<br>
<br>
<br>
Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2.<br>
<br>
(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy <br>
REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy <br>
dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu <br>
meN-senang-kan <br>
and meN-pity-APPL on all event that <br>
‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret everything that happened.’ (Musgrave 2001:156)<br>
<br>
b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah pusat<br>
2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with government central<br>
di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br>
in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase scholarship German<br>
untuk Indonesia… <br>
for Indonesia <br>
‘We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’ (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br>
<br>
<br>
Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in non-standard Indonesian.<br>
<br>
Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written about it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Best, Simon<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
References<br>
Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br>
Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).<br>
Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig.
<a href="http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/" target="_blank">http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:18.0pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222">-- </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Simon Musgrave </span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Lecturer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Monash University<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">VIC 3800<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Australia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">T: +61 3 9905 8234
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">E: <a href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu" target="_blank">
simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><a href="http://monash.edu/" target="_blank">monash.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities (<a href="http://aa-dh.org/" target="_blank">aaDH</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
<a href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/" target="_blank">Official page</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.5pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Adam J.R. Tallman</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Courier New"">PhD, UT Austin</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Kahlaische Strasse 10 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-07745 Jena <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Leipzig University<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Institut fuer Anglistik <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>IPF 141199<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04081 Leipzig <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.5pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Kahlaische Strasse 10 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-07745 Jena <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Leipzig University<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Institut fuer Anglistik <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>IPF 141199<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04081 Leipzig <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Kahlaische Strasse 10 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-07745 Jena <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Leipzig University<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Institut fuer Anglistik <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>IPF 141199<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-04081 Leipzig <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
</div>
</body>
</html>