<html><head></head><body><div class="ydpd8e2f116yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif; font-size: 12pt;">Hi,</span><br></div><div><span>
<p class="ydpb89a70dcMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">I am editing a
volume about adpositions and similar elements in languages from America. The
book (written in Spanish) includes chapters on Maká, Chorote/Manjui, Jê languages,
Waimiri Atroari, Kakinte, Chamicuro, Me’phaa de Teocuitlapa, Mixe de Yacochi, Mixe
de Tamazulápam, Tepehua, Huichol, Tarahumara, Yaqui, Seri and Spanish. </span></p>
<p class="ydpb89a70dcMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">At least for Maká (Mataguaya,
Paraguay) and Chorote/Manjui (Chaco; Argentina and Paraguay), the authors
suggest there are no adpositions but applicative morphemes. There are locative,
directional, beneficiary and instrumental applicatives. One of the authors discuss the status of
these morphemes as applicatives vs some sort of <i>encliticized </i>adpositions. In Tepehua (Totonac-Tepehua; México),
there are a couple of prepositions as well as applicative morphemes (like
Totonac, mentioned by David Beck before). In Mixe, there are some constructions that introduce the ‘instrument’: adposition, incorporation, two applicatives and
a relational pre-verbal element. </span></p>
<p class="ydpb89a70dcMsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">It seems that the functional
overlap between adpositions and applicative-like markers is common in languages
from this area too. The book will be published in April 2019. Hopefully, it
will contribute with new and interesting data to the current discussion.</span></p>
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">My best,</span></span><br></div><div><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">Lilián</span></span></div><div><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"><br></span></span></div><div><span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Times New Roman,serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"><br></span></span></div><div class="ydpd8e2f116signature">Dra. Lilián Guerrero<br>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas<br>Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas<br>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México<br>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, México, D.F.<br>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489<br>Fax: (+52)-(55)-5622 7907<br>Página web: http://lilianguerrero.weebly.com, https://unam.academia.edu/LilianGuerrero<div><br><div><div><br></div><div>Lo más importante es no hacer daño, no violentar, no maltratar.... respetar al otro, a todos los otros! </div></div></div></div></div>
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El viernes, 19 de octubre de 2018 11:08:00 GMT-5, lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org> escribió:
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<div><div dir="ltr">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Re: Applicative and preposition (Edith A Moravcsik)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:43:03 +0000<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Edith A Moravcsik <<a ymailto="mailto:edith@uwm.edu" href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu">edith@uwm.edu</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Martin Haspelmath <<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>, Peter Arkadiev<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>>, "Dryer, Matthew" <<a ymailto="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>>,<br></div><div dir="ltr"> "<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:DM3PR16MB061907817BD7EED4565A54F1BBF90@DM3PR16MB0619.namprd16.prod.outlook.com" href="mailto:DM3PR16MB061907817BD7EED4565A54F1BBF90@DM3PR16MB0619.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">DM3PR16MB061907817BD7EED4565A54F1BBF90@DM3PR16MB0619.namprd16.prod.outlook.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"> <br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">As emphasized by both Martin H. and Matthew D., clarity and transparency are important criteria for<br></div><div dir="ltr">determining the definition of a crosslinguistically applicable comparative concept. While these are<br></div><div dir="ltr">necessary criteria, they are not sufficient ones. It seems to me that the only consideration to help us<br></div><div dir="ltr">choose from among the various alternative definitions listed by Matthew is typological implications.<br></div><div dir="ltr">If a given concept can be shown to figure in crosslinguistic generalizations either by serving<br></div><div dir="ltr">as an implicans or by serving as an implicatum, it is it a useful one. If it is not a term in typological<br></div><div dir="ltr">implications, it is not useful.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Is this correct?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Edith Moravcsik<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Lingtyp <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> On Behalf Of Martin Haspelmath<br></div><div dir="ltr">Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 4:26 AM<br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Peter Arkadiev <<a ymailto="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>>; Dryer, Matthew <<a ymailto="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>>; <a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Yes, transparent terms are ideal, but I think it's even more important to have terms that mean what they always meant. Changing the meaning of a term just because one realizes that the phenomena are richer is not a good idea, because it introduces polysemy (and thus leads to confusion).<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">There is no standard nomenclature in our discipline, so for most people, most traditional terms have narrow meanings that are determined by stereotypes. These stereotypes are typically determined by a few well-known languages that come up in textbooks again and again.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">For example, "serial verb construction" (SVC), "incorporation", "labile verb", and "passive" are other well-known terms for phenomena that cover only parts of larger domains. SVCs have no linker between verbs but are closely related to other multi-verb construction types that have such a linker but otherwise SVC-like. What should we do? Extend the meaning of "SVC" beyond the stereotype and start talking about "unlinked SVCs" and "linked SVCs"?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">My feeling is that if a well-known term has no clear definition but many people use the term assuming that there is a definition (as happens all the time in linguistics), it is best to give it a narrow definition and introduce a new term for the larger domain.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin<br></div><div dir="ltr">On 19.10.18 10:51, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">Thank you, Matthew, this is an excellent point and a very useful typology, which, I hope, will be taken up. What we often need are rather a general label for a broader class of phenomena and derived sub-labels identifying particular subtypes based on a particular property, rather than opaque and unrelated terms for everyting.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Peter<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr">Peter Arkadiev, PhD<br></div><div dir="ltr">Institute of Slavic Studies<br></div><div dir="ltr">Russian Academy of Sciences<br></div><div dir="ltr">Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev" target="_blank">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">19.10.2018, 06:13, "Dryer, Matthew" <<a ymailto="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu">dryer@buffalo.edu</a>>:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Setting aside the issues that I raised in my previous email about the fact that something can be P-like in some respects but not in others, there is a separate issue regarding different types of applicatives. Martin’s proposed terminology whereby ‘"applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added’, a problem arises with the fact that in many languages P’s and R’s are treated the same way and in such languages, there is often an applicative that adds an argument that is thus simultaneously P-like and R-like. Fortunately this is easily fixed, but it is useful to look at the logical space of possible applicatives and have labels for each. Whether all of these are attested is not clear. So here is a list of possible types:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">A PR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and R’s are treated the same way (and differently from T’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and R’s.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">A PT-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s and T’s are treated the same way (and differently from R’s) and the added argument is treated like P’s and T’s.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">An R-applicative is an applicative in a language in which R’s are treated differently from P’s and T’s and the added argument is treated like an R.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">A T-applicative is an applicative in a language in which T’s are treated differently from P’s and R’s and the added argument is treated like a T.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The four possibilities above all appear to be attested but two other logical possibilities are<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">A P-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s are treated differently from both R’s and T’s and the added argument is treated like a P.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">A PTR-applicative is an applicative in a language in which P’s, T’s and R’s are treated the same way and the added argument is treated like them.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin’s proposed terminology would not treat R-applicatives as applicatives. The problem is that there are various perhaps even many languages with T-applicatives and these have always been called applicatives. It would be very strange to treat T-applicatives but not R-applicatives as applicatives when they are analogous to each other and to treat neither as applicatives would be proposing a new use of the term that would only be confusing.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">And although I think that it is a mistake to dwell too much on terminological issues, I would suggest that one of the basic principles in proposing new terminology is that it be as transparent as possible. My term “R-applicative” is transparent, at least when seen in contrast with the other types, while I find Martin’s proposed “versiative” rather opaque.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Matthew<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Lingtyp <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Martin Haspelmath <<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 at 4:18 PM<br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>" <<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 17.10.18 20:52, Peter Arkadiev wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">There are languages, most notably Northwest Caucasian and Kartvelian, where arguments introduced by applicatives are coded as ditransitive Rs rather than as monotransitive Ps. We can certainly invent a different comparative concept for this (e.g. "version", to adapt the traditional Caucasological term), but the similarities between "applicatives" and "versions" seem to be more important than differences, so it would be better to have a common comparative concept subsuming both<br></div><div dir="ltr">OK, so here's a proposal: "applicative" is a construction in which a new P-like object is added, and "versiative" is a construction in which a new (indirective-)R-like object is added (inspired by Russian "versija", or version). They are both subtypes of a more general concept, perhaps called "objectative".<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">One could also have another subtype, e.g. "adpositive", for a verbal marker that adds a new adpositionally marked argument. Then Simon Musgrave's original examples would be objectatives, both of the applicative and the adpositive sort.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">These neologisms may sound strange, but it's actually just a historical accident that we don't have such terms in common use. The fact that "applicative" is a commonly used term does not mean that there must be a natural cross-linguistic phenomenon that corresponds to the term.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr">Peter Arkadiev, PhD<br></div><div dir="ltr">Institute of Slavic Studies<br></div><div dir="ltr">Russian Academy of Sciences<br></div><div dir="ltr">Leninsky prospekt 32-A 119991 Moscow<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru" href="mailto:peterarkadiev@yandex.ru">peterarkadiev@yandex.ru</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev" target="_blank">http://inslav.ru/people/arkadev-petr-mihaylovich-peter-arkadiev</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">17.10.2018, 18:07, "Martin Haspelmath" <<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>:<br></div><div dir="ltr">I think the answer to Adam's question is that a construction is an applicative only if the new object is coded like the P-argument of a basic transitive construction.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thus, Simon Musgrave's example (1c) from Taba (based on Bowden 2001) is an (instrumental) applicative:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">npun-ak kolay peda<br></div><div dir="ltr">kill-APPL snake machete<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">But when the instrument 'machete' has its instrumental preposition (ada peda 'with a machete'), it is not an applicative, from a typological perspective (= as a comparative concept).<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">There is no "official" definition of the (typological) term "applicative", of course, but it is my understanding that most people use the term in this way. The Wikipedia article reflects this by speaking about promotion to "(core) object": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicative_voice.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(Maria Polinsky's WALS article is vague and speaks just about "increasing the number of object arguments by one", without making precise what is meant by "object", <a href="https://wals.info/chapter/109. " target="_blank">https://wals.info/chapter/109. </a>But her examples and the discussion make it clear that she means objects coded like P-arguments.)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This does not mean, of course, that the description of Taba should not use the term "Applicative" for the suffix -ak in all cases – but this would be a language-specific descriptive category, somewhat like Dative is used in Russian-type languages also when the case in question is not used in its definitional function (recipient of 'give').<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 17.10.18 16:45, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Hello,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I know of some phenomena that is similar to this (I think) in Chácobo and other languages. But I have a question about terminology here. Why is it still an applicative if a (n oblique?) postposition is marked on the "promoted" argument? What are the criteria that identify it as "promoted" in this case (non-repeatability, position in clause etc...). Or is there some type of semantic criterion at work here?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Adam<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:36 AM Françoise Rose <<a ymailto="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr" href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr" href="mailto:francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr">francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr</a>>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Simon,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thanks for your query, it’s very interesting.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I just gave a talk at SWL8 on an applicative construction of Mojeño that is correlated with the presence of verbal classifiers that refer to a location. When such a verbal classifier is present, the “coreferential” NP can be expressed as an object rather than an oblique (i.e. it loses its preposition, as in the second example below). Interestingly, there is some variation. The preposition can be maintained in the locative phrase, even when the verbal classifier is present, but there is then no valency change (so the construction does not count as an applicative). Intransitive verbs take a 3rd person subject t-prefix, while transitive verbs take some semantically more specific prefixes for 3rd person when the object is third person also (as in the second example). So this case is not exactly what you were looking for, but the presence of three alternates here is interesting: the construction of example 3 could well be an intermediate step in the development of the applicative effect of classifiers.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">t-junopo=po<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">te<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">to<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">smeno<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">3-run=pfv<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">prep<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">art.nh<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">woods<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">'S/he ran to/in/from the woods.'<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">ñi-jumpo-je-cho<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">to<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">smeno<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">3m-run-clf:interior-act<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">art.nh<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">woods<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">S/he runs inside the woods.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">t-jumpo-je-cho<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">te<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">to<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">smeno<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">3-run-clf:interior-act<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">prep<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">art.nh<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">woods<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">S/he ran inside the woods.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The slides from my presentation can be downloaded from SWL8 website.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Very best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Françoise ROSE<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Directrice de Recherches 2ème classe, CNRS<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Laboratoire Dynamique Du Langage (CNRS/Université Lyon2)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">16 avenue Berthelot<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">69007 Lyon<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">FRANCE<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(33)4 72 72 64 63<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE<<a href="http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE" target="_blank">http://www.ddl.cnrs.fr/ROSE</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">De : Lingtyp [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>] De la part de Simon Musgrave<br></div><div dir="ltr">Envoyé : mercredi 17 octobre 2018 07:16<br></div><div dir="ltr">À : <a ymailto="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Objet : [Lingtyp] Applicative and preposition<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Lingtyp members,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I am posting this query on behalf of one of my PhD students. We will post a summary of responses in due course.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">From existing studies of applicatives, only two Austronesian languages, Taba and Indonesian, have been documented to unexpectedly retain a preposition when an applicative affix is used to promote a previously non-core object to core.<br></div><div dir="ltr">Bowden, in his grammatical description of Taba (2001), states that it is possible for the same idea to be expressed using three possibilities. Firstly, that the third entity is introduced by a preposition, secondly that the applied object is marked by an applicative morpheme and thirdly that the applied object can be marked by an applicative morpheme and preposition, as the following examples show.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(1)a. Ahmad npun kolay<br></div><div dir="ltr"> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake<br></div><div dir="ltr"> ‘Ahmad killed a snake.’<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">b. Ahmad npun kolay ada peda PREPOSITION<br></div><div dir="ltr"> Ahmad 3SG=kill snake with machete<br></div><div dir="ltr"> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">c. Ahmad npunak kolay peda APPLICATIVE<br></div><div dir="ltr"> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake machete<br></div><div dir="ltr"> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> d. Ahmad npunak kolay ada peda BOTH<br></div><div dir="ltr"> Ahmad 3SG=kill-APPL snake with machete<br></div><div dir="ltr"> ‘Ahmad killed a snake with a machete.’ (2001:204)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Sometimes Indonesian clauses with applicative verbs suffixed with –kan retain the preposition directly following the verb when it is expected to have been lost according to conventional grammar rules, as shown in 2.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">(2)a. Yang penting saya sangat men-cinta-i Sandy<br></div><div dir="ltr"> REL important 1SG very meN.love.APPL Sandy<br></div><div dir="ltr"> dan meny-enang-kan atas semua ke-jadi-an itu<br></div><div dir="ltr"> meN-senang-kan<br></div><div dir="ltr"> and meN-pity-APPL on all event that<br></div><div dir="ltr"> ‘What is important is that I love Sandy and regret everything that happened.’ (Musgrave 2001:156)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> b. Kami juga sudah mem-bicara-kan dengan pem-erintah pusat<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2PL also already meN-talk-APPL with government central<br></div><div dir="ltr"> di Jakarta soal rencana men-ambah beasiswa Jerman<br></div><div dir="ltr"> in Jakarta matter plan meN-increase scholarship German<br></div><div dir="ltr"> untuk Indonesia…<br></div><div dir="ltr"> for Indonesia<br></div><div dir="ltr"> ‘We have also spoken with the central government in Jakarta about the plan to increase German scholarships to Indonesia.’ (Quasthoff & Gottwald 2012: indmix_565272)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Previous studies of Indonesian have noted the co-occurrence of applicatives and prepositions and have usually made passing comments often speculating that this feature is prevalent in non-standard Indonesian.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Our query is whether any list subscribers know of other languages which show this phenomenon and has anyone written about it?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thanks in advance for any information which you can share!<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best, Simon<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">References<br></div><div dir="ltr">Bowden, John. 2001. Taba: Description of a South Halmahera language. Canberra: Pacific Linguistics.<br></div><div dir="ltr">Musgrave, Simon. 2001. Non-subject arguments in Indonesian. The University of Melbourne. (PhD thesis).<br></div><div dir="ltr">Quasthoff, Uwe & Sebastian Gottwald. 2012. Leipzig corpus collection. (Ed.) Uwe Quasthoff & Gerhard Heyer. University of Leipzig. http://corpora2.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Simon Musgrave<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Lecturer<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">School of Languages, Literatures, Cultures and Linguistics<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Monash University<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">VIC 3800<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Australia<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">T: +61 3 9905 8234<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">E: <a ymailto="mailto:simon.musgrave@monash.edu" href="mailto:simon.musgrave@monash.edu">simon.musgrave@monash.edu</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu" href="mailto:name.surname@monash.edu">name.surname@monash.edu</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">monash.edu<<a href="http://monash.edu/" target="_blank">http://monash.edu/</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Secretary, Australasian Association for the Digital Humanities (aaDH<<a href="http://aa-dh.org/" target="_blank">http://aa-dh.org/</a>>)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Official page<<a href="http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/" target="_blank">http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/simon-musgrave/</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr">Adam J.R. Tallman<br></div><div dir="ltr">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br></div><div dir="ltr">PhD, UT Austin<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin Haspelmath (<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Kahlaische Strasse 10<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">D-07745 Jena<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">&<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Leipzig University<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Institut fuer Anglistik<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">IPF 141199<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">D-04081 Leipzig<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin Haspelmath (<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Kahlaische Strasse 10<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">D-07745 Jena<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">&<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Leipzig University<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Institut fuer Anglistik<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">IPF 141199<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">D-04081 Leipzig<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">--<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Martin Haspelmath (<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Kahlaische Strasse 10<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">D-07745 Jena<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">&<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Leipzig University<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Institut fuer Anglistik<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">IPF 141199<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">D-04081 Leipzig<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20181019/9ac002cc/attachment-0001.html" 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