<div dir="ltr">Hi all, hi David!<div><br></div><div>I would think that overt grammatical categories largely reflect what speakers talk about frequently in particular usage contexts (à la Du Bois 'grammars code best what speakers do most' or Bybee's ideas about the emergence of constituent structure). </div><div><br></div><div>So what would the precursors be for a grammaticalized category of shape? One might find some ideas by looking at the collocational properties of shape-denoting terms in corpora of different languages, and also some clues about why they don't develop into a grammatical category of 'shape.' Maybe they don't have the right frequency properties - say, a small but very frequent class of shape terms co-occurring frequently with a large class of something else). A look into corpora might also give some clues as to why they do end up entering into constructions that they do enter into, like compounds.</div><div><br></div><div>Eitan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Eitan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 8:05 AM Amina Mettouchi <<a href="mailto:aminamettouchi@me.com">aminamettouchi@me.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Hi David, would Thomas the Tank Engine bring something to your reflection on animacy hierarchy ? </div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://goo.gl/images/yGy2mN" target="_blank">https://goo.gl/images/yGy2mN</a></div><div dir="ltr">It seems to me that languages are much less driven by what looks like real-world constraints on animacy than we think, having in mind the kind of language used in standard descriptive utterances among adults in western societies. What looks like violations (speaking to your computer, thinking that this special gift from your departed grandma protects you, reassuring your child that their teddy bear is not hurt etc) might just be evidence for the fact that animacy is an attribute, not an inalienable property of référents themselves (therefore that it is what we predicate of entities that makes them animate or not): a possible caption to the linked picture would be : Thomas the tank engine was so proud that the mayor of London had organized a welcome ceremony for him in Victoria station. </div><div dir="ltr">And if this type of language use falls out of the scope of your enquiry, I guess looking at texts describing shamanic practice, or referring to animism or totemism by culturally-anchored speakers of the corresponding languages would be relevant ?</div><div dir="ltr">Best</div><div dir="ltr">Amina</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> </div><div dir="ltr"><br>On 27 Nov 2018, at 06:12, Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Hi David,<div>In English the use of “inanimate”<i> it </i>as opposed to animate <i>he</i> or <i>she</i> is based to a large extent on familiarity with the gender of the referent, so babies where one doesn’t yet know the gender, or bugs and slugs, etc., where it doesn’t matter, take <i>it</i> because the use of <i>he</i> or <i>she</i> would require the person to know the gender/sex of the referent, though in some cases one can use an unmarked conventionalised gender for some animals.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div>Randy<br><div>
<div dir="auto" style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="text-align:start;text-indent:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-style-span" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:15px"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">-----</span></span><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;text-align:-webkit-auto;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;text-align:-webkit-auto;border-spacing:0px"><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;text-align:-webkit-auto;border-spacing:0px"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white"><b>Randy J. LaPolla, PhD FAHA</b> （羅</span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white;font-size:13px"><font class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-style-span" face="Song">仁地</font></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:white">）</span></div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span style="background-color:white"><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">Professor of Linguistics, with courtesy appointment in Chinese, School of Humanities </font></span></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333015441895px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Nanyang Technological University</span></div><div 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target="_blank">https://www.routledge.com/The-Sino-Tibetan-Languages-2nd-Edition/LaPolla-Thurgood/p/book/9781138783324</a></font></span></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span style="background-color:white"><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><i>Sino-Tibetan Linguistics </i>(2018)</font></span></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span style="background-color:white"><font color="#222222" face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><a href="https://www.routledge.com/Sino-Tibetan-Linguistics/LaPolla/p/book/9780415577397" style="color:rgb(149,79,114)" target="_blank">https://www.routledge.com/Sino-Tibetan-Linguistics/LaPolla/p/book/9780415577397</a></font></span></div><div><span style="background-color:white"><br></span></div></div></div></span></span></div></span></div></div></div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 27 Nov 2018, at 3:27 AM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><br class="m_-5148057400665196819webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I am looking for examples of exceptions to the animacy hierarchy that are motivated by the shape or other spatial configurational properties of the relevant referents.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">The animacy hierarchy is primarily of an ontological nature; shape doesn't usually matter.<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>A slug is animate even though its shape is ill-defined and amorphous, while a stone statue is inanimate even if it represents an identifiable person.<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">What would such a shape-based exception to the animacy hierachy look like?<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>In Japanese (according to Wikipedia, I hope this is right), there are two verbs of existence,<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>iru</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>for animates,<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>aru</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>for inanimates, but<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>robotto</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>('robot') can occur with either of the two: while<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>iru</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>entails "</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">emphasis on its human-like behavior",<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>aru</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>entails "emphasis on its status as a nonliving thing".<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>This description seems to suggest that it's the robot's sentience that is of relevance, not its human shape: presumably, even if the robot assumed the form of a sphere with blinking lights, if its behaviour were sufficiently humanlike it could take<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>iru</i>(speakers of Japanese: is this correct?).<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>On the other hand, I'm guessing that a human-like statue could never take<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>iru<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>(is this correct?).<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>So if my factual assumptions about Japanese are correct, the distribution of<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>iru</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>and<span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>aru</i><span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span>does not offer a shape-based exception to the animacy hierarchy.<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>A bona-fide shape-based exception to the animacy hierarchy would be one in which all human-shaped objects — robots, dolls, statues, whatever — behaved like humans with respect to the relevant grammatical property.<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Or conversely, a case in which an animate being that somehow managed to assume the form of a typical inanimate object would be treated as inanimate.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I would like to claim that such shape-based exceptions to the animacy hierarchy simply do not exist, but I am running this past the collective knowledge of LINGTYP members first, to make sure I'm not missing out on anything.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p><span style="font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">More generally, it seems to be the case that grammar doesn't really care much about shapes.<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The closest thing to grammaticalized shape that I can think of is numeral classifiers, which typically refer to categories such as "elongated object", "small compact object", and so forth.<span> <span class="m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>But these straddle the boundary between grammar and lexicon, and, more importantly, are typically organized paradigmatically, rather than hierarchically, as is the case for animacy categories.</span><span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important"></span><pre class="m_-5148057400665196819moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="m_-5148057400665196819moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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</pre><span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline!important">Lingtyp mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none"></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Lingtyp mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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