<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Ancient Greek and Sanskrit made a difference with reference to the same
‘substantia’ according to whether it was thought of as animate (mostly a
divinity) or as inanimate. Cp. Lat. <EM>ignis, </EM>Skt<EM>. Agnih</EM>
(masc.) vs. Gk. <EM>pyr</EM> (ntr.); Gk. <EM>Oneiros</EM> “Dream”(masc.)
vs. <EM>onar</EM> “sleep” (ntr), etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Paolo</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">Prof.Paolo
Ramat<BR>Università di Pavia (retired)<BR>Istituto Universitario di Studi
Superiori (IUSS Pavia, retired)<BR>Societas Linguist. Europ., Honorary
Member<BR>Academia Europaea</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000"><BR>Piazzetta
Arduino 11<BR>I – 27100 Pavia<BR>##39 347 044 98 44 (port.)<BR>##39 0382 27 0 27
(home)</DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV><FONT size=3
face=Calibri>::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il
href="mailto:eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il">Eitan Grossman</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 27, 2018 7:22 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=aminamettouchi@me.com
href="mailto:aminamettouchi@me.com">Amina Mettouchi</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Lingtyp] animacy hierarchy: exceptions based on
shape</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=ltr>Hi all, hi David!
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I would think that overt grammatical categories largely reflect what
speakers talk about frequently in particular usage contexts (à la Du Bois
'grammars code best what speakers do most' or Bybee's ideas about the emergence
of constituent structure). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So what would the precursors be for a grammaticalized category of shape?
One might find some ideas by looking at the collocational properties of
shape-denoting terms in corpora of different languages, and also some clues
about why they don't develop into a grammatical category of 'shape.' Maybe they
don't have the right frequency properties - say, a small but very frequent class
of shape terms co-occurring frequently with a large class of something else). A
look into corpora might also give some clues as to why they do end up entering
into constructions that they do enter into, like compounds.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Eitan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Eitan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr>On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 8:05 AM Amina Mettouchi <<A
href="mailto:aminamettouchi@me.com">aminamettouchi@me.com</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Hi David, would Thomas the Tank Engine bring something to your
reflection on animacy hierarchy ? </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><A href="https://goo.gl/images/yGy2mN"
target=_blank>https://goo.gl/images/yGy2mN</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>It seems to me that languages are much less driven by what looks
like real-world constraints on animacy than we think, having in mind the kind
of language used in standard descriptive utterances among adults in western
societies. What looks like violations (speaking to your computer, thinking
that this special gift from your departed grandma protects you, reassuring
your child that their teddy bear is not hurt etc) might just be evidence for
the fact that animacy is an attribute, not an inalienable property of
référents themselves (therefore that it is what we predicate of entities that
makes them animate or not): a possible caption to the linked picture would be
: Thomas the tank engine was so proud that the mayor of London had organized a
welcome ceremony for him in Victoria station. </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>And if this type of language use falls out of the scope of your
enquiry, I guess looking at texts describing shamanic practice, or referring
to animism or totemism by culturally-anchored speakers of the
corresponding languages would be relevant ?</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Best</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Amina</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>On 27 Nov 2018, at 06:12, Randy J. LaPolla <<A
href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com"
target=_blank>randy.lapolla@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>Hi David,
<DIV>In English the use of “inanimate”<I> it </I>as opposed to animate
<I>he</I> or <I>she</I> is based to a large extent on familiarity with the
gender of the referent, so babies where one doesn’t yet know the gender, or
bugs and slugs, etc., where it doesn’t matter, take <I>it</I> because the
use of <I>he</I> or <I>she</I> would require the person to know the
gender/sex of the referent, though in some cases one can use an unmarked
conventionalised gender for some animals.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>All the best,</DIV>
<DIV>Randy<BR>
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<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On 27 Nov 2018, at 3:27 AM, David Gil <<A
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target=_blank>gil@shh.mpg.de</A>>
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">I am looking for examples
of exceptions to the animacy hierarchy that are motivated by the shape or
other spatial configurational properties of the relevant
referents.</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">The animacy hierarchy is
primarily of an ontological nature; shape doesn't usually
matter.<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>A
slug is animate even though its shape is ill-defined and amorphous, while
a stone statue is inanimate even if it represents an identifiable
person.<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">What would such a
shape-based exception to the animacy hierachy look like?<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>In
Japanese (according to Wikipedia, I hope this is right), there are two
verbs of existence,<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>iru</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>for
animates,<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>aru</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>for
inanimates, but<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>robotto</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>('robot')
can occur with either of the two: while<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>iru</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>entails
"</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">emphasis on its
human-like behavior",<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>aru</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>entails
"emphasis on its status as a nonliving thing".<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>This
description seems to suggest that it's the robot's sentience that is of
relevance, not its human shape: presumably, even if the robot assumed the
form of a sphere with blinking lights, if its behaviour were sufficiently
humanlike it could take<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>iru</I>(speakers
of Japanese: is this correct?).<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>On
the other hand, I'm guessing that a human-like statue could never
take<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>iru<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></I>(is
this correct?).<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>So
if my factual assumptions about Japanese are correct, the distribution
of<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>iru</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>and<SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><I>aru</I><SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>does not
offer a shape-based exception to the animacy hierarchy.<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>A
bona-fide shape-based exception to the animacy hierarchy would be one in
which all human-shaped objects — robots, dolls, statues, whatever —
behaved like humans with respect to the relevant grammatical
property.<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>Or
conversely, a case in which an animate being that somehow managed to
assume the form of a typical inanimate object would be treated as
inanimate.</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">I would like to claim that such
shape-based exceptions to the animacy hierarchy simply do not exist, but I
am running this past the collective knowledge of LINGTYP members first, to
make sure I'm not missing out on anything.</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"></SPAN> </P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal">More
generally, it seems to be the case that grammar doesn't really care much
about shapes.<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>The
closest thing to grammaticalized shape that I can think of is numeral
classifiers, which typically refer to categories such as "elongated
object", "small compact object", and so forth.<SPAN> <SPAN
class=m_-5148057400665196819Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>But
these straddle the boundary between grammar and lexicon, and, more
importantly, are typically organized paradigmatically, rather than
hierarchically, as is the case for animacy categories.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: verdana; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FLOAT: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline !important; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal"></SPAN><PRE class=m_-5148057400665196819moz-signature style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; TEXT-DECORATION: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-STYLE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; font-variant-caps: normal" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <A class=m_-5148057400665196819moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target=_blank>gil@shh.mpg.de</A>
Office Phone (Germany): <A href="tel:+49-3641686834" target=_blank>+49-3641686834</A>
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target=_blank>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</A><BR
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target=_blank>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</A><BR
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<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
dir=ltr><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>Lingtyp
mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target=_blank>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN><A
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
target=_blank>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</A></SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Lingtyp
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target=_blank>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</A><BR><A
href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp"
rel=noreferrer
target=_blank>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Lingtyp mailing
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