<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Dear all,</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Concerning Martin's test:</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">In some languages, negation is expressed by verb-like "negative verbs" and the structure may look similar to a complex sentence (I am not a specialist, though). I allege that negative verbs cannot be negated - but this may be not because of monoclausality but because of possible constraints on double negation.</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">(I certainly agree that the concept of clause is by no means clear, and I even think that it is not applicable in all contexts in all languages. But the point here is different.)</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Best,</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Yura</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">30.11.2018, 18:17, "Adam James Ross Tallman" <ajrtallman@utexas.edu>:</div><blockquote xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" type="cite"><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">Thanks Mark, Nigel, Daniel, David and Martin!</div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">Very helpful sources and things to consider!</div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">On Martin's comments. Yes, I agree that building an analysis off of symptoms will lead to cherry picking (I think that's what you are saying here). There is a proposal on the theory/typology of case splits by Coon, Laka and Salanova (and its an idea that I've explored in Chacobo), that typological variation in the number of case splits (speaking strictly about morphological encoding) can be reduced if we consider that some of the case splits involve biclausal constructions. In all the reviewed cases there is some clear marking of subordination (except Chacobo, which is why I got interested in the proposal). Gildea and Castro, <em>from what I understand</em>, argues that even if there is marking of subordination, we could still understand a clause as monoclausal if the matrix verb's (now an auxiliary) semantics has diverged from its source, because of the universal biclausal -> monoclausal path. Implicitly this undermines the claims that case splits can be related to a monoclausal/biclausal distinction.</div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">Without presupposing the existence of a monoclausal/biclausal distinction (or at least a discrete distinction), it seems like the correct line of research is to see what the correlations are between the "symptoms of biclausality" and the case splits (I think this would roughly follow the methodology in Bickel that you mentioned, but Bickel doesn't deal with complementation and auxiliary verb constructions). If we get a perfect (or near perfect) correlation somewhere, then maybe the Laka-Coon-Salanova proposal has something to it, regardless of whether we happen to regard that symptom as definitional of the monoclausal-biclausal distinction.</div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">best,</div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;"> </div><div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130;">Adam </div> <div>On Fri, Nov 30, 2018 at 8:38 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I don't have access to Sheehan's paper (it's behind a paywall), but
if she offers "a range of tests", then that's precisely the problem:<br />
<br />
The very notion of a "test" (or diagnostic, or symptom) presupposes
that there is some deep reality of "monoclausality" vs.
"biclausality" – in other words, a natural kind or innate category.<br />
<br />
As long as we don't have very good evidence that such distinctions
are part of human nature, we need to operate with *definitions*, not
with symptoms. (Doctors identify diseases on the basis of
diagnostics or symptoms, but this makes sense only if they know that
these diseases are part of nature, and not idiosyncratic to each
patient.)<br />
<br />
Balthasar Bickel has a discussion of some of these issues in this
2010 paper:<br />
<br />
<div style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em;">
<div>Bickel, Balthasar. 2010. Capturing
particulars and universals in clause linkage: A multivariate
analysis. In Isabelle Bril (ed.), <i>Clause-hierarchy and
clause-linking: the syntax and pragmatics interface</i>,
51–102. Amsterdam: Benjamins.</div>
<span title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Capturing%20particulars%20and%20universals%20in%20clause%20linkage%3A%20A%20multivariate%20analysis&rft.place=Amsterdam&rft.publisher=Benjamins&rft.aufirst=Balthasar&rft.aulast=Bickel&rft.au=Balthasar%20Bickel&rft.au=Isabelle%20Bril&rft.date=2010&rft.pages=51%E2%80%93102"></span></div>
<br />
Best,<br />
Martin<br />
<br />
<div>On 30.11.18 14:02, Nigel Vincent wrote:<br />
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I discuss this issue briefly in a recent article about causatives in Latin and Romance - see J.N. Adams & N. Vincent (eds) Early and Late Latin: Continuity or Change?, CUP, 2016, especially pp. 310-312. I refer there to Michelle Sheehan's chapter 'Complex predicates' in A. Ledgeway & M. Maiden (eds) The Oxford Guide to the Romance Languages, OUP, 2016, pp 981-994. She offers a range of tests for bi-/mono-clausality. It looks very much as if the diachronic profile here is biclausal Latin becomes monoclausal across the Romance languages with some of these then showing signs of developing back into (a different kind) of biclausal construction.
Best
Nigel
Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics
The University of Manchester
Linguistics & English Language
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures
The University of Manchester
<a href="https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html" target="_blank">https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html</a>
________________________________________
From: Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] on behalf of Martin Haspelmath [<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 12:01 PM
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Universal trend: biclausal -> monoclausal?
On 29.11.18 00:30, Adam James Ross Tallman wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>It seems to be generally true that biclausal structures can become
monoclausal structures over time and not the reverse.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>This is indeed an interesting observation that has not been discussed
very widely, I think. Harris & Campbell (1995) (in their book on
diachronic syntax) discuss such phenomena at some length, but they don't
seem to explain the unidirectionality. So it would be nice to see a
convincing explanation.
But in order to make this claim fully testable, one needs a general
definition of "clause", and I don't know of a very good definition. My
working definition is in terms of negatability: If a structure that
contains two verbs can be negated in two different ways, it's biclausal,
but otherwise it's monoclausal:
She was able [to do it]. (biclausal)
(She was not able to do it / She was able not to do it)
She could do it. (monoclausal)
(She could not do it – there is no contrast between "she could [not do
it]" and "she could not [do it]")
This indicates that "want" clauses are monoclausal in English, because
"I want to not make a mistake" sounds bad. But the judgements are
subtle, and one may perhaps even have something like "The king ordered
the non-destruction of the city" (vs. "The king didn't order the
distruction of the city", which is normally considered monoclausal).
So the negation criterion isn't very good, but I know of no better way
of distinguishing in general between monoclausal and biclausal
constructions.
Martin
--
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br />
<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br />
Lingtyp mailing list<br />
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br />
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br />
</blockquote> <div> </div>--<div><font face="monospace, monospace">Adam J.R. Tallman</font><div><font face="monospace, monospace">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz</font><div><font face="monospace, monospace">PhD, UT Austin</font></div> ,<p>_______________________________________________<br />Lingtyp mailing list<br /><a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br /><a rel="noopener noreferrer" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></p></div></div></blockquote><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">***********************************************</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Yury Lander</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Higher School of Economics, Linguistics</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">https://hse-ru.academia.edu/YuryLander</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">http://www.hse.ru/staff/yulander</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">http://www.hse.ru/en/staff/yulander</div><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> </div>