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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The phenomenon that Siva refers to has a long tradition in Asia and has been described as ‘brush talk’.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For a historical sketch about the more general issue, cf. Hartmut Haberland, 1998, Written and spoken language: relationship. In Jacob L. Mey (ed.).
<i>Concise encyclopedia of pragmatics</i>. Amsterdam: Pergamon Press, p. 1048-1049<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79">Hartmut Haberland</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79"><br>
Professor emeritus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79"><img width="100" height="42" style="width:1.0416in;height:.4375in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="https://intra.ruc.dk/fileadmin/assets/adm/campusit/ruc.png" alt="RUC"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79"><br>
<br>
<b>Roskilde University</b><br>
Department of Communication and Arts<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79">Universitetsvej 1<br>
DK-4000 Roskilde<br>
Telephone: +45 46742841</span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F4E79"><br>
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</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>På vegne af </b>Siva Kalyan<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 2. januar 2019 11:22<br>
<b>Til:</b> Joo Ian <ian.joo@outlook.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Fwd: Is written language a separate modality?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Ian,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There are indeed a few such conlangs, including “Unker Non-Linear Writing System” (<a href="https://s.ai/nlws/">https://s.ai/nlws/</a>) and Tapissary (<a href="http://www.tapissary.com">http://www.tapissary.com</a>; see also
<a href="http://dedalvs.com/smileys/2018.html">http://dedalvs.com/smileys/2018.html</a>). Blissymbolics was also intended to be like this, but was at some level unavoidably tied to an English-like syntax.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In the “real world”, I suspect that written Chinese in Japan may have functioned as a kind of “soundless language” for those who were sufficiently fluent in it to be able to skip the customary step of rearranging the characters to match
Japanese word order. I certainly have this experience as someone who has (out of laziness) tried to learn to read classical Chinese without bothering to learn the pronunciations of characters.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Siva<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 2 Jan 2019, at 7:26 pm, Joo Ian <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@outlook.com">ian.joo@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear David,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">How about if one constructed a non-phonetic written conlang (that is, a conlang that does not use any phonetic letters, but rather soundless symbols)?
In that case, it is not "anchored" towards any spoken language, but we can surely learn it and communicate in it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Ian JOO (</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">주이안</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu/">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:19:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Fwd: Is written language a separate modality?</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ian,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">My response would be that a deaf person who knows how to read and write in an oral language DOES "know" that language, to a very considerable extent. What you know when you know
a language is an abstract system of rules that underlies both speech and writing but exists independently of both of these manifestations of language. Granted, a deaf person who can read and write an oral language will be missing out on more substantial aspects
of the language (most of the phonetics and phonology) than a hearing but illiterate person. But still, a deaf person who can read and write Indonesian cannot but know lots of the language, rather like a contemporary hearing scholar of Ancient Sumerian. In
contrast, a deaf signer of ASL does not have his or her linguistic competence anchored in any spoken language, such as English — sign languages are not parasitic on or derivative from any spoken languages. (Though there can be all kinds of contact between
signed and spoken languages, but that's a separate issue.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 02/01/2019 17:01, Joo Ian wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear David,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thank you for your insight. However, I would not agree that learning spoken Indonesian is necessary for learning written Indonesian - the deaf Indonesians
are a clear counterexample, as they never would have learned spoken Indonesian.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Ian JOO (</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Malgun Gothic",sans-serif">주이안</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu/">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of David Gil
<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> Wednesday, January 2, 2019 3:56:30 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> Re: [Lingtyp] Is written language a separate modality?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">On 02/01/2019 10:19, Joo Ian wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I would like to ask everyone if you agree on the idea that written language is not simply a representation of spoken language, but a distinct modality (similar to how sign and
spoken language are different modalities). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I would say yes and no, but more no ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">It seems that there is a general consensus that a written language is simply the “shadow” of a spoken language. But I am not sure if this is exactly the case.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">You are right that this is not exactly the case. Case in point: Social media in Indonesia (and presumably other places as well) has innovated all
kinds of conventions that are purely orthographic: they have a life of their own, beyond the language that they "come from". Emoticons are just one small aspect of this. if you "just" know Indonesian, but are not familiar with these conventions, you won't
be able to follow a Facebook conversation "in Indonesian".<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">But here's the rub: knowing Indonesian isn't a sufficient condition for understanding such a Facebook conversation, but it's most definitely a necessary
condition. Such orthographic systems are still derivative from the spoken language, the way a ludling might be, or, for that matter, the way signed versions of spoken languages, such as Signed English is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">But this is NOT the case for real sign languages. A sign language such as ASL has nothing whatsoever to do with any spoken language; you don't need
to learn English to learn ASL, and for the most part it won't help you that much to do so. So the analogy between written language and sign language is of only limited validity and is potentially misleading.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">-- David Gil Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena,
Germany Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a> Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834 Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David Gil<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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