<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Dear Ian,</div><div><br></div><div>Follow-up on Siva's remarks: this is probably not true for native speakers (you should ask them), but foreigners learning Chinese or Japanese as a FL/L2 can tell you something like: "I know what this character MEANS, but I forgot how to READ it". Which entails that they have learned it primarily from their experience and study of the written language. To be honest, this happens to me also with opaque phonographic orthographies. A couple of days ago I was reading an article with the word 'allegiance' in it. I realised that I knew what it meant (primarily from context), but I had no idea as to how it sounded - I checked a dictionary with phonetic transctiptions. For native speakers, this might be a rare experience, though.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Giorgio<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Il giorno mer 2 gen 2019 alle ore 11:23 Siva Kalyan <<a href="mailto:sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com">sivakalyan.princeton@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>Dear Ian,</div><div><br></div>There are indeed a few such conlangs, including “Unker Non-Linear Writing System” (<a href="https://s.ai/nlws/" target="_blank">https://s.ai/nlws/</a>) and Tapissary (<a href="http://www.tapissary.com" target="_blank">http://www.tapissary.com</a>; see also <a href="http://dedalvs.com/smileys/2018.html" target="_blank">http://dedalvs.com/smileys/2018.html</a>). Blissymbolics was also intended to be like this, but was at some level unavoidably tied to an English-like syntax.<div><br></div><div>In the “real world”, I suspect that written Chinese in Japan may have functioned as a kind of “soundless language” for those who were sufficiently fluent in it to be able to skip the customary step of rearranging the characters to match Japanese word order. I certainly have this experience as someone who has (out of laziness) tried to learn to read classical Chinese without bothering to learn the pronunciations of characters.</div><div><br></div><div>Siva</div><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 2 Jan 2019, at 7:26 pm, Joo Ian <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@outlook.com" target="_blank">ian.joo@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
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Dear David,<br>
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How about if one constructed a non-phonetic written conlang (that is, a conlang that does not use any phonetic letters, but rather soundless symbols)? In that case, it is not "anchored" towards any spoken language, but we can surely learn it and communicate
in it.<br>
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Regards,<br>
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Ian JOO (주이안)<br>
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<a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu/" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a></div>
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<div id="gmail-m_5870804365105731104divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 2, 2019 4:19:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Fwd: Is written language a separate modality?</font>
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<div><p>Ian,</p><p>My response would be that a deaf person who knows how to read and write in an oral language DOES "know" that language, to a very considerable extent. What you know when you know a language is an abstract system of rules that underlies both speech and writing
but exists independently of both of these manifestations of language. Granted, a deaf person who can read and write an oral language will be missing out on more substantial aspects of the language (most of the phonetics and phonology) than a hearing but illiterate
person. But still, a deaf person who can read and write Indonesian cannot but know lots of the language, rather like a contemporary hearing scholar of Ancient Sumerian. In contrast, a deaf signer of ASL does not have his or her linguistic competence anchored
in any spoken language, such as English — sign languages are not parasitic on or derivative from any spoken languages. (Though there can be all kinds of contact between signed and spoken languages, but that's a separate issue.)</p><p>David<br>
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<div class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104moz-cite-prefix">On 02/01/2019 17:01, Joo Ian wrote:<br>
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Dear David,<br>
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Thank you for your insight. However, I would not agree that learning spoken Indonesian is necessary for learning written Indonesian - the deaf Indonesians are a clear counterexample, as they never would have learned spoken Indonesian.<br>
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Regards,<br>
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Ian JOO (주이안)<br>
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<a href="http://ianjoo.academia.edu/" target="_blank">http://ianjoo.academia.edu</a><br>
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<b><font>From:</font></b><font> Lingtyp <a class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of David Gil <a class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">
<gil@shh.mpg.de></a></font><br>
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<font><b>Sent:</b></font><font> Wednesday, January 2, 2019 3:56:30 PM</font><br>
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<font><b>To:</b></font><font> <a class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a></font><br>
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<font><b>Subject:</b></font><font> Re: [Lingtyp] Is written language a separate modality?</font>
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Dear all,<br>
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On 02/01/2019 10:19, Joo Ian wrote:<br>
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I would like to ask everyone if you agree on the idea that written language is not simply a representation of spoken language, but a distinct modality (similar to how sign and spoken language are different modalities).
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I would say yes and no, but more no ...<br>
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It seems that there is a general consensus that a written language is simply the “shadow” of a spoken language. But I am not sure if this is exactly the case.
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You are right that this is not exactly the case. Case in point: Social media in Indonesia (and presumably other places as well) has innovated all kinds of conventions that are purely orthographic: they have a life of their own, beyond the language that they
"come from". Emoticons are just one small aspect of this. if you "just" know Indonesian, but are not familiar with these conventions, you won't be able to follow a Facebook conversation "in Indonesian".<br>
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But here's the rub: knowing Indonesian isn't a sufficient condition for understanding such a Facebook conversation, but it's most definitely a necessary condition. Such orthographic systems are still derivative from the spoken language, the way a ludling
might be, or, for that matter, the way signed versions of spoken languages, such as Signed English is.<br>
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But this is NOT the case for real sign languages. A sign language such as ASL has nothing whatsoever to do with any spoken language; you don't need to learn English to learn ASL, and for the most part it won't help you that much to do so. So the analogy between
written language and sign language is of only limited validity and is potentially misleading.<br>
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David<br>
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-- David Gil Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany Email:
<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a> Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834 Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
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<pre class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="gmail-m_5870804365105731104moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Prof. Dr. Giorgio Francesco Arcodia</div><div dir="ltr">馬振國博士 副教授</div><div>Vice-president, <i>European Association of Chinese Linguistics</i></div><div>歐洲漢語語言學學會 副會長<br></div><div><a href="http://www.chineselinguistics.eu/" target="_blank">http://www.chineselinguistics.eu/</a></div><div>Treasurer, <i>Associazione Italiana di Linguistica Cinese</i></div><div>意大利漢語語言學學會 財務秘書<br><i></i></div><div><a href="https://linguisticacinese.wixsite.com/ailc" target="_blank">https://linguisticacinese.wixsite.com/ailc</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Università degli Studi di Milano-Bicocca</div><div dir="ltr">米蘭比克卡大學</div><div dir="ltr">Dipartimento di Scienze Umane per
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