<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div>Hebrew also has such constructions, although I imagine there are analyses in which these are not non-canonical subjects. With the lexical verb 'to succeed', you have a contrast between (a) and (b):</div><div><br></div><div>(a) Nuʁit hitsliχ-a (b-a-mivχan)</div><div> Nurit succeed.PST-3sgf (on-the-test)</div><div>'Nurit did well (on the test).'</div><div><br></div><div>(b) (Nuʁit...) hitsliaχ l-a (b-a-mivχan)</div><div>(Nurit...) succeed.PST.3sgm DAT-3sgf (on-the-test)</div><div>'She succeeded/it went well for her (on the test).'</div><div><br></div><div>(Interestingly, I don't know if "to fail" participates in the same alternation. While I wouldn't say niχʃal l-a [fail.PST.3sgm DAT-3sgf], I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility, and I can imagine some contexts in which it would be ok. In any event, it isn't conventionalized to the same extent as the "succeed" pair.)</div><div><br></div><div>There are also multiple constructions in which datives participate in the domain of "doing well/succeeding" or the opposite. As an example:</div><div><br></div><div>(c) halaχ l-a (tov/ʁa)</div><div>go.PST.3sgm DAT-3sgf (good/bad)</div><div>'It went well/badly for her.'</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Again, I'm not sure how Hebrew specialists would analyze these, because the analysis of the dative is pretty contentious.</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Eitan</div><div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Eitan Grossman<div>Senior Lecturer, Department of Linguistics/School of Language Sciences<br></div><div>Hebrew University of Jerusalem</div><div>Tel: +972 2 588 3809</div><div>Fax: +972 2 588 1224</div><div><div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 12:33 AM Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"></p>
<div>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Dear all,</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Here is a non-IE example from North Saami (Uralic), disregarding the probable influence from its Scandinavian neighbors. ILL stands for the illative, the case for Direction and
Recipient, which could be (and earlier has been) labeled "dative" as well:</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">Midjiide/Johanii
<span> </span>lihkostuvai <span>
</span>buot.</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">1PL.ILL/Johan.ILL
<span> </span>succeed.PST.3SG all</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">'We/Johan succeeded in everything.'</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">(cf. Norwegian
<i>Alt lykkes for oss/Johan</i>.)</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Unlike in Scandinavian, a dummy subject usually does not occur:</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">Midjiide/Johanii
<span> </span>ii <span> </span>lihkostuvvan
<span> </span>oažžut <span> </span>oktavuođa
<span> </span>duinna.</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Courier New"">1PL.ILL/Johan.ILL
<span> </span>NEG.3SG succeed.PST.PTCP get.INF contact.ACC 2SG.ACC</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">'We/Johan didn't succeed in contacting you.'</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">(cf. Norwegian
<i>Det lyktes ikke for oss/Johan å ta kontakt med deg</i>.)</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Best regards,</span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p style="line-height:115%;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-size:9pt;line-height:115%;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">Jussi</span></p>
</div>
<br>
<p></p>
<br>
<br>
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<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Fra:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> på vegne av E. Bashir <<a href="mailto:ebashir@yahoo.com" target="_blank">ebashir@yahoo.com</a>><br>
<b>Sendt:</b> onsdag 2. januar 2019 22.11<br>
<b>Til:</b> Ludwig Paul; <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,"Lucida Grande",sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20500">ِIn Urdu, for a person to be successful in doing something can be expressed as:</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20501"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20496">X-ko Y-me~ kaamyaabii huii</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20499">X (person)-DAT Y(effort)-in success became</div>
<div dir="ltr" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20497">Y was successful in (doing) Y.</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_qtdSeparateBR" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20498"><br>
With best wishes,</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_qtdSeparateBR" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20502">Elena Bashir, Senior Lecturer in Urdu</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_qtdSeparateBR" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20503">The University of Chicago</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_qtdSeparateBR" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20504"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yahoo_quoted" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20389" style="display:block">
<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20388" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,"Lucida Grande",sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<div id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20387" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,"Lucida Grande",sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20386"><font id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20390" size="2" face="Arial">
<hr size="1">
<b id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20520"><span id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20519" style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Ludwig Paul <<a href="mailto:ludwig.paul@uni-hamburg.de" target="_blank">ludwig.paul@uni-hamburg.de</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January 2, 2019 1:46 PM<br>
<b id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20522"><span id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20521" style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Lingtyp] Verbs of success with dative subject<br>
</font></div>
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_y_msg_container" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1546455192577_20391"><br>
Dear Spike,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I could not find the discussion or the answers to your question in the <br clear="none">
list, maybe this is a repetition: there is the German verbal <br clear="none">
expression "mir (Dat.) gelingt etwas", i.e. I am successful in (doing) <br clear="none">
sth.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Best,<br clear="none">
Ludwig<br clear="none">
<div class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yqt2293037098" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574x_yqtfd50432"><br clear="none">
Zitat von Spike Gildea <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:spike@uoregon.edu" id="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574LPlnk114988" class="gmail-m_-4800840876665208574OWAAutoLink" target="_blank">spike@uoregon.edu</a>>:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
> Dear colleagues,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> I forward a query from my colleague, Jóhanna Barðdal, who is looking <br clear="none">
> for examples of predicates of "success” with non canonical subject <br clear="none">
> marking, in particular those that take a dative subject.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> We are working on Indo-European verbs/predicates with the meanings <br clear="none">
> 'succeed', 'be successful', 'make progress', 'turn out well', 'go <br clear="none">
> well'. The last one in the sense "he is doing well in his dance <br clear="none">
> class" or even "he is doing well in life”.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Thank you in advance for indications of other places in the world <br clear="none">
> where we might find such predicates taking a dative subject!<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Best,<br clear="none">
> Spike<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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