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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Mark’s examples from Eton
(Bantu)
illustrating different kinds of grammatical forms and rules
remind us how
complex languages can be – thanks for this, Mark!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">However, the reason I coined
the new term
“welded” was to have a term that does not come with any kind of
baggage, and it
would defeat the purpose to change the meaning that I proposed –
and note that my
definition explicitly excludes non-segmental interactions
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2019-January/006929.html">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2019-January/006929.html</a>).
(I
know that this may sound Eurocentric, but I admit that I’m not a
tone expert,
and tonologists should feel free to coin whatever terms they
need.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We all have the intuition
that there are
degrees of “coalescence” or “tightness of combination”, but we
cannot measure
such degrees yet, so most of the relevant literature remains
vague and subjective.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In order to make headway
here, we need to
compare things that are objectively comparable, not merely
appering comparable
on an intuitive basis. Probably someone can eventually define a
clear concept of “attachedness”
that combines segmental interaction and tonal interaction, but
my proposal was
more modest. (I left out suprasegmental criteria for the reasons
mentioned by Adam Tallman.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I don’t know how best to
compare tonal
patterns, but I would insist that we need a term (like “welded”)
for bound
forms that show segmental interaction, and also a term “form”
that is limited
to segment sequences, because otherwise we cannot define “morph”
and “root”,
some of the most basic terms of comparative grammar. (Thus, a
non-segmental
high tone pattern cannot be a “form”, but must be something
else.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sorry if such discussions
sound boring, but
I don’t see an alternative to precise terminology that is used
uniformly across
the discipline.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25.01.19 13:23, Mark Van de Velde
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:6f0bfca8-b20f-fbed-947c-bf6727671b44@cnrs.fr"
type="cite">
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<p>Dear colleagues,</p>
<p>The tone system of the Cameroonian Bantu language Eton may be
useful for illustrating the usefulness of distinguishing between
what Martin calls "bound" versus "welded" (if I understood it
correctly), and to show that the definition of welded form
should better not be restricted to *segmental* phonological
interaction.</p>
<p>Eton has a rule that copies high tones. The copied high tone
subsequently attaches to its right according to a set of rules
that take into account the type of morphological boundary the
tone has to cross. (The prosodic status of the syllable to which
it attaches plays a role as well, which is not relevant here.) <br>
</p>
<p>Three types of boundary have to be distinguished: a strong
(word) boundary, a weak (affix) boundary and an intermediate
boundary that I called "clitic" due to its intermediate status.
A high tone that crosses a weak or intermediate boundary deletes
any following low tone, and then further spreads (if it crossed
an affix boundary) or stays put (if it crossed a clitic
boundary). A high tone that crosses a strong boundary delinks a
following low, which becomes floating. Therefore, we need three
degrees of "welding" in an analysis of Eton tonology. <br>
</p>
<p>These three degrees are defined by tone rules, but they
correspond to typical morphological distinctions. The
identification of the strong boundary as a word boundary and
that of the weak boundary as an affix boundary are
unproblematic. The intermediate boundary is found between a
genitive marker and a noun. Genitive markers are generally
phrasal affixes with an intermediate degree of welding in the
Bantu languages, so "clitic" seems right here too.<br>
</p>
<p>Crucially, high tone forms - linguistic forms that lack a
segmental shape and consist of a high tone only - come in three
types according to the way in which they attach to the right. By
analogy and for descriptive ease, I called them tonal affix,
tonal clitic and tonal word. Clearly, all of these are clear
examples of bound forms, but they show three different degrees
of welding. In the following examples H stands for a floating
high tone, # is a word boundary, = a clitic boundary and - an
affix boundary, ꜜ downstep (caused by a floating low tone in
between high tones).<br>
</p>
<p>ɛ̀-ʤɔ̀ŋ 'clan', ɛ̀-ʤɔ́ŋ 'hole', H# LOCATIVE, H= GENITIVE, H-
CONSTRUCT FORM</p>
<p>H# ɛ̀-ʤɔ̀ŋ --> ɛ́ʤɔ̀ŋ 'in the clan', H# ɛ̀-ʤɔ́ŋ -->
ɛ́ꜜʤɔ́ŋ 'in the hole'<br>
</p>
<p>H= ɛ̀-ʤɔ̀ŋ --> ɛ́ʤɔ̀ŋ 'of the clan', H= ɛ̀-ʤɔ́ŋ -->
ɛ́ʤɔ́ŋ 'of the hole'</p>
<p>H-ɛ̀-ʤɔ̀ŋ di̋ --> ɛ́ʤɔ̂ŋ dí 'this clan', H= ɛ̀-ʤɔ́ŋ di̋
--> ɛ́ʤɔ́ŋ dî 'this hole'</p>
<p>(For more details: Van de Velde, Mark (2008) <i>A Grammar of
Eton.</i> Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter, p 52-59)<br>
</p>
<p>If I understood Martin right, welding is relative, gradual, and
language/construction/domain specific, whereas bounding is
discreet and crosslinguistically definable.</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>Mark</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/01/2019 11:56, Martin
Haspelmath wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:5C4AEB4C.70607@shh.mpg.de"> On
25.01.19 11:29, Sebastian Nordhoff wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:07babd3d-f886-a256-6ae3-61292b9af633@glottotopia.de"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 1/25/19 10:27 AM, Martin Haspelmath wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">*a welded form is one that shows segmental phonological interaction *with its neighbour.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">I can't help wondering whether "phonologically conditioned allomorphy"
would not be an existing concept which has identical properties to the
concept of "welding":
- there are two or more forms to choose from
- the choice of form depends on the shape of the "neighbour"
Best wishes
Sebastian</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, a welded bound form would always exhibit "phonologically
conditioned allomorphy", but the latter notion is much broader
and not well-defined. For one thing, the "allomorph" concept
depends on the "morpheme" concept, on which there is no
agreement, and much confusion. For example, are German <i>-er</i>
and <i>-en</i> allomorphs of a single {PL} morpheme? Are
English <i>-ness</i> and <i>-ity</i> allomorphs of a single
{ABSTR.NOUN} morpheme? Are French <i>tomb(-er)</i> 'fall' and <i>chute</i>
'fall' allomorphs of a single {FALL} morpheme?<br>
<br>
If one includes such suppletive alternants under "allomorphy"
(as almost everyone does), then one also has phonologically
conditioned allomorphs that are not welded forms according to
the proposed definition (because these must be variants of the
same form) (cf. Carstairs 1988 on "phonologically conditioned
suppletion").<br>
<br>
For example, Dutch has the plural forms <i>-s</i> and <i>-en</i>,
which are distributed according to phonological conditions, and
the division of labour between the English suffixes <i>-ize</i>
and <i>-ify</i> (<i>computer-ize, French-ify</i>) is also more
phonological than anything else, it seems. There is no
weldedness in Dutch <i>-s</i> or English <i>-ize</i>.<br>
<br>
I find the notions of "form" and "form variant" (= a form with a
somewhat different shape due to a phonetically natural sound
alternation) much more viable than the traditional "morpheme"
and "allomorph" notions (the confusion of "morpheme" has not
improved since Mugdan's (1986) paper, where he traced the
diverse uses of this term since the 1880s).<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:07babd3d-f886-a256-6ae3-61292b9af633@glottotopia.de"
type="cite"> </blockquote>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
<br>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Mark Van de Velde
director of LLACAN (CNRS - Inalco), Paris
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://llacan.vjf.cnrs.fr/pers/vandevelde/">http://llacan.vjf.cnrs.fr/pers/vandevelde/</a>
Please note my new address: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mark.vandevelde@cnrs.fr">mark.vandevelde@cnrs.fr</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
</pre>
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