<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>This seems like a good opportunity to make a plug for this nice paper by Andy Pawley, which hasn't gotten the attention it deserves:<br><br></div><div>Pawley, Andrew. 2010. Helter skelter and ñugl ñagl: English and Kalam rhyming jingles and the psychic unity of mankind. In Kenneth McElhanon & Ger Reesink (eds.), <i>A mosaic of languages and cultures: Studies celebrating the career of Karl J. Franklin </i>(SIL E-Books 19), 273–293. Dallas: SIL International.</div><div><div class="gmail-csl-bib-body" style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em">
<span class="gmail-Z3988" title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Helter%20skelter%20and%20%C3%B1ugl%20%C3%B1agl%3A%20English%20and%20Kalam%20rhyming%20jingles%20and%20the%20psychic%20unity%20of%20mankind&rft.place=Dallas&rft.publisher=SIL%20International&rft.series=SIL%20e-Books&rft.aufirst=Andrew&rft.aulast=Pawley&rft.au=Andrew%20Pawley&rft.au=Kenneth%20McElhanon&rft.au=Ger%20Reesink&rft.date=2010&rft.pages=273%E2%80%93293"></span>
</div></div><div><div class="gmail-csl-bib-body" style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em">
<span class="gmail-Z3988" title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=Helter%20skelter%20and%20%C3%B1ugl%20%C3%B1agl%3A%20English%20and%20Kalam%20rhyming%20jingles%20and%20the%20psychic%20unity%20of%20mankind&rft.place=Dallas&rft.publisher=SIL%20International&rft.series=SIL%20e-Books&rft.aufirst=Andrew&rft.aulast=Pawley&rft.au=Andrew%20Pawley&rft.au=Kenneth%20McElhanon&rft.au=Ger%20Reesink&rft.date=2010&rft.pages=273%E2%80%93293"></span>
</div></div><div><br></div><div>It's available online at <<a href="https://www.sil.org/resources/publications/entry/9253">https://www.sil.org/resources/publications/entry/9253</a>><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,<br>Don</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 3:38 PM Heath Jeffrey <<a href="mailto:schweinehaxen@hotmail.com">schweinehaxen@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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An alternative superior to fuzzy "comparative concepts" is to start with well-defined functions rather than form classes. Consider the following phenomena, some of which have been lumped together as ideophones:</div>
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a) onomatopoieas (thud, thwap, cock-a-doodle-doo);</div>
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b) lexicalized forms denoting striking visual and other nonauditory sensory patterns, whether verbs or other stem-types (twinkle, glimmer, zigzag, cross-hatch; stench, putrid)</div>
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c) intensifiers for verbs or adjectives, e.g. brand new and stop in one's tracks, along with special (truncated or otherwise modified) forms of adjectives and verbs with similar effect;</div>
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d) extreme quantifiers, e.g. zero (zilch), a meager amount ([not even] a plug nickel), and 'all' (the whole enchilada)</div>
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e) loaded epithets, slurs</div>
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f) diminutives (and other hypocoristics), augmentatives</div>
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g) greetings</div>
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h) emphatic positive and negative polarity (yes I can, not on your life!, over my dead body)</div>
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All of these are "expressive" or "affective"<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> in one way or another, but they are fundamentally distinct semantically and they do not usually
coalesce into a single form class. Instead of starting by equating form classes in different languages as "ideophones" and then comparing their lexical inventories, how about starting with a comprehensive set of potentially "expressive" or "emphatic" functions
and examining how they are realized in various languages? </span></div>
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<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">For one thing, this would reveal that some languages/cultures are much more oriented toward expressivity overall or in specific contexts than
others. For example, there are remarkable cross-linguistic differences in the extent to which diminutives and other hypocoristics are developed. Western European languages (English, Dutch, Basque), some Arabic varieties, and west coast Amerindian languages
are high on the list, Australian Aboriginal languages dead last. Likewise with greetings and other forms of conversation-starting "phatic communion" which are highly variable (West Africans are champions, Arabs pretty good, western Europeans mediocre, Australian
Aboriginals again dead last). These are anthropologically profound issues that are rarely addressed by typologists.</span></div>
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<div id="gmail-m_3387135645855427057divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Dingemanse, Mark <<a href="mailto:Mark.Dingemanse@mpi.nl" target="_blank">Mark.Dingemanse@mpi.nl</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 20, 2019 10:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] Re: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories</font>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> (Hoping this </span><span style="font-size:12pt">reply to the
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">digest ends up at </span><span style="font-size:12pt">the right thread.) </span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt">1.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"></span><span style="font-size:12pt">Regarding Ian Joo's initial query about </span><span style="font-size:12pt">ideophone semantic categories, you might want to have a look at Samarin's work on West-African ideophone systems.
They look a lot like the broad categories </span><span style="font-size:12pt">Guillaume posted before, and are likely to be useful beyond
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">African languages. One doubt one may have about the ones published so far is that they are fairly top down and haphazard; one just has to compare Samarin's categories to those from his French contemporary Alexandre to see
differences that say more about their respective metalanguages (English and French) than about the ideophone systems they're meant to capture. Perhaps the Concepticon can provide a way out here.</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt">2.</span></p>
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<div><span style="font-size:12pt">Regarding the question of a </span><i style="font-size:12pt">cross-linguistic </i><span style="font-size:12pt">definition of ideophones, I agree with Jeff and Martin that ideophones seem special in that they are "easy to identify,
but difficult to define" (as I wrote in my 2012 review). Nonetheless, the issues are not so different from those we've seen with many other major word classes, including fuzzy boundaries, diachronic diversions, and languages that seem to lack an instantiation
of the category. A</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> recurring temptation in this space is to take </span>definitions intended for cross-linguistic comparison (comparative concepts) and <span style="font-size:12pt">require of them the precision offered by language-specific
definitions (descriptive categories). The latter are always going to offer more precision, but they pay for this in lack of generalizability. </span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:12pt">Hindi ideophones as described by Kellersman are clearly different from mots idéophonique in Bambara as defined by Dumestre, Japanese mimetics as defined by Akita, or Semelai expressives as defined by Kruspe. One reason all
of these are different is that they are (quite sensibly) grammatical definitions rooted in language-specific facts.
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">We need </span><span style="font-size:12pt">such </span><span style="font-size:12pt">language-specific
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">grammatical definitions </span><span style="font-size:12pt">to do justice to the attested </span><span style="font-size:12pt">linguistic diversity.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
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<div id="gmail-m_3387135645855427057x_divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols">
<span style="font-size:12pt"></span><span style="font-size:12pt">But why stop there? For the comparative linguist a natural next question is to </span><span style="font-size:12pt">what extent
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">these </span><span style="font-size:12pt"></span><span style="font-size:12pt">categories</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt">might be
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">linkable to a common comparative concept that may help explain recurrent similarities across languages</span><span style="font-size:12pt">.</span><span style="font-size:12pt">
<span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:12pt">
Paraphrasing Dryer (1998), "when we do find such similarities, it is at least convenient to employ labels that have been employed for similar word classes". The term 'ideophone', understood as a typological notion, is just such a label</span><span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:12pt">. </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;font-size:12pt"></span></span><span style="font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">One
demonstration of the utility of this label is that it has helped to unify findings from disparate languages. </span></span><span style="font-size:12pt">For instance, we've pointed to remarkable convergence in morphosyntactic behaviour for ideophone-like categories </span><span style="font-size:12pt">in
10 disparate languages in our 2017 Journal of Linguistics paper, a finding that is directly related to their proposed definition as words depictive of sensory imagery, and that has since been replicated in Basque, Luhya, Amazonian Kichwa, and Wao Terero.</span></div>
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That said, I think the definition introduced in my 2012 paper can be improved upon. One formal feature <span style="font-size:12pt">I've recently proposed to add is that </span><span style="font-size:12pt">ideophones </span><span style="font-size:12pt">tend
to be an open lexical class. This captures the ideophone systems of Basque, Japanese, Zulu, Siwu, Gbaya, etc</span><span style="font-size:12pt">, while excluding</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> adjacent or orthogonal </span><span style="font-size:12pt">phenomena
like phonaesthemes, depicting constructions in signed languages, and (in some languages) onomatopoeia. According to this </span><span style="font-size:12pt">revised comparative </span><span style="font-size:12pt">definition, a canonical ideophone is a member
of an open lexical class of marked words that depict sensory imagery. It can no doubt be further sharpened and improved, but </span><span style="font-size:12pt">it captures 5 important dimensions of ideophone-like categories across languages and so allows
for a more objective systematic comparative treatment of ideophones and adjacent phenomena than would be allowed by sticking only to language-specific descriptive categories.</span></div>
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I write about these matters in a <span style="font-size:12pt">forthcoming chapter on "'Ideophone' as a comparative concept" (</span>happy to share the uncorrected proofs if you send me an email).<span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
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<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Best,</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Mark Dingemanse</span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Refs cited:</span><br>
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Alexandre, Pierre. 1966. Préliminaire à une présentation des idéophones Bulu. In J. Lukas (ed.), Neue Afrikanische Studien, Hamburger Beiträge zur Afrika-Kunde, 9–28. Hamburg: Deutsches Institut für Afrika-Forschung.</div>
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Dingemanse, Mark & Kimi Akita. 2017. An inverse relation between expressiveness and grammatical integration: on the morphosyntactic typology of ideophones, with special reference to Japanese. Journal of Linguistics 53(3). 501–532. DOI: <a href="https://doi.org/10.1017/S002222671600030X" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1017/S002222671600030X</a></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt">Dingemanse, Mark. 2019. ‘Ideophone’ as a comparative concept. In Kimi Akita & Prashant Pardeshi (eds.), Ideophones, Mimetics, Expressives, 13–34. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
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<span>Dryer, Matthew S. 1997. Are grammatical relations universal? In Joan Bybee, John Haiman, & Sandra A. Thompson (eds.), Essays on Language Function and Language Type, 115–143. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.</span><br>
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<span style="font-size:12pt">Samarin, William J. 1965. Perspective on African ideophones. African Studies 24(2). 117–121.</span><br>
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Samarin, William J. 1967. Determining the meaning of ideophones. Journal of West African Languages 4(2). 35–41.</div>
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<div id="gmail-m_3387135645855427057x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of <a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 19, 2019 7:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Lingtyp Digest, Vol 54, Issue 10</font>
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<div class="gmail-m_3387135645855427057x_PlainText">Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories<br>
(Martin Haspelmath)<br>
2. R: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories<br>
(Paolo Ramat)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:55:09 +0100<br>
From: Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic<br>
categories<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5C912CFD.405@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">5C912CFD.405@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
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<br>
Jeffrey Heath makes a very important point here. It's easy to think of a <br>
typical exemplar of an ideophone, and this is so different from other <br>
types of words that the special term "ideophone" seems useful. But <br>
exemplar-based concepts give us subjective stereotypes, not comparative <br>
concepts that can be used for objective cross-linguistic comparison.<br>
<br>
There are other terms of this kind in linguistics ("word", "clitic", <br>
"agglutination", "agreement") – they seem useful because everyone can <br>
think of a salient exemplar, but they are undefined, so we cannot really <br>
use them for quantitative cross-linguistic comparison.<br>
<br>
(The only definition of "ideophone" that I could think of is <br>
"obligatorily duplicated forms that can be used as adverbials" – this <br>
would include the most typical cases, and would exclude cases like Greek <br>
sighá-sighá 'slowly', because sighá on its own is possible as well, if I <br>
remember correctly. The definition would exclude many of the cases <br>
included by Dingemanse, of course.)<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19.03.19 12:07, Heath Jeffrey wrote:<br>
> How do you define "ideophone"? Are English verbs twinkle and sputter <br>
> ideophones? Are onomatopoeias ideophones? What about adjectival <br>
> intensifiers like brand in brand new?<br>
><br>
> There is no cross-linguistically applicable grammatical definition of <br>
> this concept, i.e. with necessary and sufficient morphosyntactic <br>
> properties. Dingemanse's universal definition of ideophones is, for <br>
> good reason, limited to the convergence of phonological and semantic <br>
> markedness. Both of these are intrinsically vague and subjective. His <br>
> definition makes no mention of morphosyntactic properties. In specific <br>
> languages, morphosyntactically valid word-class categories often <br>
> include some (intuitively) ideophone-like stems along with some <br>
> (intuitively) non-ideophone-like stems, and exclude other <br>
> (intuitively) ideophone-like stems. For example, onomatopoeias <br>
> (sometimes claimed to be the universal bedrock of ideophones) often <br>
> constitute a morphosyntactic class of their own, distinct from the <br>
> class containing many (intuitively) ideophone-like stems. So there is <br>
> no universal core for ideophone, comparable to that often claimed for <br>
> adjective or numeral.<br>
><br>
> Any crosslinguistic survey of ideophone semantics or phonology, even <br>
> if limited to West Africa, will have to wrestle with the vagueness of <br>
> the concept.<br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> *From:* Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf <br>
> of Johann-Mattis List <<a href="mailto:mattis.list@lingulist.de" target="_blank">mattis.list@lingulist.de</a>><br>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 19, 2019 5:47 AM<br>
> *To:* <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic <br>
> categories<br>
> I'd recommend all of you to see if the concepts you want to use there<br>
> appear (already) in Concepticon at <br>
> <a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconcepticon.clld.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C14ca4b75a75448e1e38d08d6ad436cf1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886902479438681&sdata=ERgpFlexm3bLBjSQ0SPvncLN3QpdJrrgeFZbUKhY2Ak%3D&reserved=0" id="gmail-m_3387135645855427057LPlnk604251" target="_blank">
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconcepticon.clld.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2da20e444a544c06124008d6ac4feb60%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636885856584198686&sdata=q158Ogy4Tt9jd78oRc8wYeFa9kPTNDlHsbG7Au9jwP0%3D&reserved=0</a>.
<br>
> If not,<br>
> and you publish your list, we'll gladly add them, if they are not too<br>
> idiosyncratic, but I'd expect they won't if you go for cross-linguistic<br>
> studies as a goal.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
><br>
> Mattis<br>
><br>
> On 19/03/2019 10.32, Françoise Rose wrote:<br>
> > Hi Ian,<br>
> ><br>
> > Here is a list of general actions or states that are expressed (often<br>
> > more specifically) by Teko ideophones and that do not seem to fit in<br>
> > your current list.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Blowing<br>
> ><br>
> > Be dark<br>
> ><br>
> > Closed eyes / Open eyes<br>
> ><br>
> > Grimace<br>
> ><br>
> > Snoaring<br>
> ><br>
> > Tearing<br>
> ><br>
> > Entering /exiting<br>
> ><br>
> > Winking<br>
> ><br>
> > Shooting<br>
> ><br>
> > Falling<br>
> ><br>
> > Slip<br>
> ><br>
> > Jumping<br>
> ><br>
> > Go up/down<br>
> ><br>
> > Push<br>
> ><br>
> > Bubbles<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > You can read about Teko ideophones in my grammar. P. 400-409<br>
> ><br>
> > Ros Rose, Françoise. /Grammaire de l’émérillon Teko, Une Langue<br>
> > Tupi-Guarani de Guyane Française/. Langues et Sociétés d’Amérique<br>
> > Traditionnelle 10. Louvain: Peeters, 2011.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Very best,<br>
> ><br>
> > Françoise<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *De :* Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> *De la part<br>
> > de* Joo Ian<br>
> > *Envoyé :* mardi 19 mars 2019 09:20<br>
> > *À :* <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> > *Cc :* <a href="mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com" target="_blank">caroljuan27@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com" target="_blank">mariaflax@gmail.com</a><br>
> > *Objet :* [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Dear all,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I am currently trying to make a list of semantic categories of<br>
> > ideophones, in order to do a cross-linguistic comparison (for example,<br>
> > do ideophones whose meanings are related to brightness show similarity<br>
> > across different languages?)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Here’s my list so far, created out of my intuition and previous <br>
> literature.<br>
> ><br>
> > I wonder if you have any meanings that you would like to add to or<br>
> > remove from the list.<br>
> ><br>
> > The goal is to make a list of ideophone meanings so that most languages<br>
> > that have a sizeable ideophone inventory would have at least several<br>
> > ideophones that belong to each category.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *Semantic Categories*<br>
> ><br>
> > Air<br>
> ><br>
> > Anxiety<br>
> ><br>
> > Bright<br>
> ><br>
> > Clean<br>
> ><br>
> > Clear-cut/Vivid<br>
> ><br>
> > Crying<br>
> ><br>
> > Dirty/Messy<br>
> ><br>
> > Dry<br>
> ><br>
> > Eating/Drinking<br>
> ><br>
> > Fast<br>
> ><br>
> > Flow<br>
> ><br>
> > Friction<br>
> ><br>
> > Hitting/Beating<br>
> ><br>
> > Hungry/Thirsty<br>
> ><br>
> > Laughter<br>
> ><br>
> > Looking<br>
> ><br>
> > Plenty<br>
> ><br>
> > Ringing<br>
> ><br>
> > Ripping/Cutting<br>
> ><br>
> > Romantic<br>
> ><br>
> > Rotation<br>
> ><br>
> > Rough<br>
> ><br>
> > Rupture<br>
> ><br>
> > Scattering<br>
> ><br>
> > Secretly<br>
> ><br>
> > Shaking/Vibration<br>
> ><br>
> > Slow/Lazy<br>
> ><br>
> > Soft<br>
> ><br>
> > Solid<br>
> ><br>
> > Speaking<br>
> ><br>
> > Stop<br>
> ><br>
> > Walking/Running<br>
> ><br>
> > Wet<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I would appreciate any comments or advices.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > From Seoul,<br>
> ><br>
> > Ian<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> > <br>
> <a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=02%7C01%7C%7C14ca4b75a75448e1e38d08d6ad436cf1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886902479458691&sdata=kWevJmsH7usysVc0G4RCRlfKl6j9hEGjTLDW5Fwz90g%3D&reserved=0" id="gmail-m_3387135645855427057LPlnk775567" target="_blank">
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> ><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10 <br>
D-07745 Jena<br>
&<br>
Leipzig University<br>
Institut fuer Anglistik<br>
IPF 141199<br>
D-04081 Leipzig<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:10:35 +0100<br>
From: "Paolo Ramat" <<a href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it" target="_blank">paoram@unipv.it</a>><br>
To: "'Martin Haspelmath'" <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>,<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] R: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic<br>
categories<br>
Message-ID: <000701d4de7f$0d16fc10$2744f430$@<a href="http://unipv.it" target="_blank">unipv.it</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
As a contribution to the ideophones discussion I’m attaching a very interesting article by the ethnolinguist Maurizio Gnerre which will appear in the next issue of the “Archivio Glottologico Italiano” (a monographic issue dedicated to ‘deixis’)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Paolo<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Da: Lingtyp [<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>] Per conto di Martin Haspelmath<br>
Inviato: martedì 19 marzo 2019 18:55<br>
A: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jeffrey Heath makes a very important point here. It's easy to think of a typical exemplar of an ideophone, and this is so different from other types of words that the special term "ideophone" seems useful. But exemplar-based concepts give us subjective stereotypes,
not comparative concepts that can be used for objective cross-linguistic comparison.
<br>
<br>
There are other terms of this kind in linguistics ("word", "clitic", "agglutination", "agreement") – they seem useful because everyone can think of a salient exemplar, but they are undefined, so we cannot really use them for quantitative cross-linguistic comparison.<br>
<br>
(The only definition of "ideophone" that I could think of is "obligatorily duplicated forms that can be used as adverbials" – this would include the most typical cases, and would exclude cases like Greek sighá-sighá 'slowly', because sighá on its own is possible
as well, if I remember correctly. The definition would exclude many of the cases included by Dingemanse, of course.)<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19.03.19 12:07, Heath Jeffrey wrote:<br>
<br>
How do you define "ideophone"? Are English verbs twinkle and sputter ideophones? Are onomatopoeias ideophones? What about adjectival intensifiers like brand in brand new?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
There is no cross-linguistically applicable grammatical definition of this concept, i.e. with necessary and sufficient morphosyntactic properties. Dingemanse's universal definition of ideophones is, for good reason, limited to the convergence of phonological
and semantic markedness. Both of these are intrinsically vague and subjective. His definition makes no mention of morphosyntactic properties. In specific languages, morphosyntactically valid word-class categories often include some (intuitively) ideophone-like
stems along with some (intuitively) non-ideophone-like stems, and exclude other (intuitively) ideophone-like stems. For example, onomatopoeias (sometimes claimed to be the universal bedrock of ideophones) often constitute a morphosyntactic class of their own,
distinct from the class containing many (intuitively) ideophone-like stems. So there is no universal core for ideophone, comparable to that often claimed for adjective or numeral.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Any crosslinguistic survey of ideophone semantics or phonology, even if limited to West Africa, will have to wrestle with the vagueness of the concept.
<br>
<br>
_____ <br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Johann-Mattis List <<a href="mailto:mattis.list@lingulist.de" target="_blank">mailto:mattis.list@lingulist.de</a>>
<<a href="mailto:mattis.list@lingulist.de" target="_blank">mattis.list@lingulist.de</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 5:47 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I'd recommend all of you to see if the concepts you want to use there<br>
appear (already) in Concepticon at <a href="https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconcepticon.clld.org" target="_blank">
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconcepticon.clld.org</a> <<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconcepticon.clld.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C14ca4b75a75448e1e38d08d6ad436cf1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636886902479518733&sdata=9hjfSuWkBLDqVPtDdZ6Z4uPBupUuUID6EdYWAuGXKF0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fconcepticon.clld.org&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2da20e444a544c06124008d6ac4feb60%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636885856584198686&sdata=q158Ogy4Tt9jd78oRc8wYeFa9kPTNDlHsbG7Au9jwP0%3D&reserved=0</a>>
&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2da20e444a544c06124008d6ac4feb60%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636885856584198686&sdata=q158Ogy4Tt9jd78oRc8wYeFa9kPTNDlHsbG7Au9jwP0%3D&reserved=0. If not,<br>
and you publish your list, we'll gladly add them, if they are not too<br>
idiosyncratic, but I'd expect they won't if you go for cross-linguistic<br>
studies as a goal.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Mattis<br>
<br>
On 19/03/2019 10.32, Françoise Rose wrote:<br>
> Hi Ian,<br>
> <br>
> Here is a list of general actions or states that are expressed (often<br>
> more specifically) by Teko ideophones and that do not seem to fit in<br>
> your current list.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Blowing<br>
> <br>
> Be dark<br>
> <br>
> Closed eyes / Open eyes<br>
> <br>
> Grimace<br>
> <br>
> Snoaring<br>
> <br>
> Tearing<br>
> <br>
> Entering /exiting<br>
> <br>
> Winking<br>
> <br>
> Shooting<br>
> <br>
> Falling<br>
> <br>
> Slip<br>
> <br>
> Jumping<br>
> <br>
> Go up/down<br>
> <br>
> Push<br>
> <br>
> Bubbles<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> You can read about Teko ideophones in my grammar. P. 400-409<br>
> <br>
> Ros Rose, Françoise. /Grammaire de l’émérillon Teko, Une Langue<br>
> Tupi-Guarani de Guyane Française/. Langues et Sociétés d’Amérique<br>
> Traditionnelle 10. Louvain: Peeters, 2011.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Very best,<br>
> <br>
> Françoise<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *De :* Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> *De la part<br>
> de* Joo Ian<br>
> *Envoyé :* mardi 19 mars 2019 09:20<br>
> *À :* <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<br>
> *Cc :* <a href="mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com" target="_blank">caroljuan27@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com</a>> ; <a href="mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com" target="_blank">mariaflax@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com" target="_blank">mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic categories<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dear all,<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I am currently trying to make a list of semantic categories of<br>
> ideophones, in order to do a cross-linguistic comparison (for example,<br>
> do ideophones whose meanings are related to brightness show similarity<br>
> across different languages?)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Here’s my list so far, created out of my intuition and previous literature.<br>
> <br>
> I wonder if you have any meanings that you would like to add to or<br>
> remove from the list.<br>
> <br>
> The goal is to make a list of ideophone meanings so that most languages<br>
> that have a sizeable ideophone inventory would have at least several<br>
> ideophones that belong to each category.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *Semantic Categories*<br>
> <br>
> Air<br>
> <br>
> Anxiety<br>
> <br>
> Bright<br>
> <br>
> Clean<br>
> <br>
> Clear-cut/Vivid<br>
> <br>
> Crying<br>
> <br>
> Dirty/Messy<br>
> <br>
> Dry<br>
> <br>
> Eating/Drinking<br>
> <br>
> Fast<br>
> <br>
> Flow<br>
> <br>
> Friction<br>
> <br>
> Hitting/Beating<br>
> <br>
> Hungry/Thirsty<br>
> <br>
> Laughter<br>
> <br>
> Looking<br>
> <br>
> Plenty<br>
> <br>
> Ringing<br>
> <br>
> Ripping/Cutting<br>
> <br>
> Romantic<br>
> <br>
> Rotation<br>
> <br>
> Rough<br>
> <br>
> Rupture<br>
> <br>
> Scattering<br>
> <br>
> Secretly<br>
> <br>
> Shaking/Vibration<br>
> <br>
> Slow/Lazy<br>
> <br>
> Soft<br>
> <br>
> Solid<br>
> <br>
> Speaking<br>
> <br>
> Stop<br>
> <br>
> Walking/Running<br>
> <br>
> Wet<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I would appreciate any comments or advices.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> From Seoul,<br>
> <br>
> Ian<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
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Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a> <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> )<br>
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&<br>
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Institut fuer Anglistik <br>
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End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 54, Issue 10<br>
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