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Yes – Jeffrey is right that we shouldn't use fuzzy concepts (of any
sort, whether comparative or language-particular), but precise
concepts.<br>
<br>
But there is no reason why comparative concepts based on form should
be less precise than concepts based on function. For example, I
proposed a concept <font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt">"obligatorily
duplicated forms that can be used as adverbials", as a way of
reconstructing the intuition that many people have with respect
to the term "ideophone".</span></font> This seems pretty precise
to me (though "adverbial" is perhaps too vague, so there is room for
improvement).<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Mark Dingemanse says that "ideophones
are easy to identify, but difficult to define", but I don't see
how identification could be independent of definition. What is
easy is to think of a sterotypical example, but it is not easy to
distinguish ideophones from non-ideophones. In general, I think
it's never difficult to define a (clear) concept/term, but it's
often difficult to find a clear concept that corresponds
reasonably to most people's stereotypes.<br>
<br>
Now what about Jeffrey's "onomatopoeias" and "greetings"? Again,
it's easy to think of examples, but can we distinguish
non-onomatopoeias from onomatopoeias? And non-greetings from
greetings? (Or rhyming jingles from non-rhyming-jingles, to take
Andrew Pawley's case?) <br>
<br>
I'm not sure – and back in 2010, we actually tried to define
"greeting" for the Atlas of Pidgin and Creole Languages
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://apics-online.info/">https://apics-online.info/</a>), because we felt that there were
interesting distinctions between the types of greetings that
different languages use (good day! how are you? have you eaten?
etc.). But we were unable to come up with a clear a concept that
corresponds to the "greeting" stereotype, so we gave up.<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
On 20.03.19 23:37, Heath Jeffrey wrote:<br>
</div>
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An alternative superior to fuzzy "comparative concepts" is to
start with well-defined functions rather than form classes.
Consider the following phenomena, some of which have been lumped
together as ideophones:</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
a) onomatopoieas (thud, thwap, cock-a-doodle-doo);</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
b) lexicalized forms denoting striking visual and other
nonauditory sensory patterns, whether verbs or other stem-types
(twinkle, glimmer, zigzag, cross-hatch; stench, putrid)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
c) intensifiers for verbs or adjectives, e.g. brand new and stop
in one's tracks, along with special (truncated or otherwise
modified) forms of adjectives and verbs with similar effect;</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
d) extreme quantifiers, e.g. zero (zilch), a meager amount ([not
even] a plug nickel), and 'all' (the whole enchilada)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
e) loaded epithets, slurs</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
f) diminutives (and other hypocoristics), augmentatives</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
g) greetings</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
h) emphatic positive and negative polarity (yes I can, not on
your life!, over my dead body)</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
All of these are "expressive" or "affective"<span style="color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; background: var(--white);"> in one way or
another, but they are fundamentally distinct semantically and
they do not usually coalesce into a single form class. Instead
of starting by equating form classes in different languages
as "ideophones" and then comparing their lexical inventories,
how about starting with a comprehensive set of potentially
"expressive" or "emphatic" functions and examining how they
are realized in various languages? </span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background:
var(--white);"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background:
var(--white);">For one thing, this would reveal that some
languages/cultures are much more oriented toward expressivity
overall or in specific contexts than others. For example,
there are remarkable cross-linguistic differences in the
extent to which diminutives and other hypocoristics are
developed. Western European languages (English, Dutch,
Basque), some Arabic varieties, and west coast Amerindian
languages are high on the list, Australian Aboriginal
languages dead last. Likewise with greetings and other forms
of conversation-starting "phatic communion" which are highly
variable (West Africans are champions, Arabs pretty good,
western Europeans mediocre, Australian Aboriginals again dead
last). These are anthropologically profound issues that are
rarely addressed by typologists.</span></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Dingemanse, Mark <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Mark.Dingemanse@mpi.nl"><Mark.Dingemanse@mpi.nl></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 20, 2019 10:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] Re: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone
semantic categories</font>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt"> (Hoping this </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">reply to the
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">digest ends up at </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">the right thread.) </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">1.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"></span><span
style="font-size:12pt">Regarding Ian Joo's initial query
about </span><span style="font-size:12pt">ideophone
semantic categories, you might want to have a look at
Samarin's work on West-African ideophone systems. They
look a lot like the broad categories </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">Guillaume posted before, and are
likely to be useful beyond
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">African languages. One
doubt one may have about the ones published so far is
that they are fairly top down and haphazard; one just
has to compare Samarin's categories to those from his
French contemporary Alexandre to see differences that
say more about their respective metalanguages (English
and French) than about the ideophone systems they're
meant to capture. Perhaps the Concepticon can provide a
way out here.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">2.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"></span></p>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt">Regarding the question of
a </span><i style="font-size:12pt">cross-linguistic </i><span
style="font-size:12pt">definition of ideophones, I agree
with Jeff and Martin that ideophones seem special in
that they are "easy to identify, but difficult to
define" (as I wrote in my 2012 review).
Nonetheless, the issues are not so different from those
we've seen with many other major word classes, including
fuzzy boundaries, diachronic diversions, and languages
that seem to lack an instantiation of the category. A</span><span
style="font-size:12pt"> recurring temptation in this
space is to take </span>definitions intended for
cross-linguistic comparison (comparative concepts) and <span
style="font-size:12pt">require of them the precision
offered by language-specific definitions (descriptive
categories). The latter are always going to offer more
precision, but they pay for this in lack of
generalizability. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12pt">Hindi ideophones as
described by Kellersman are clearly different from mots
idéophonique in Bambara as defined by Dumestre, Japanese
mimetics as defined by Akita, or Semelai expressives as
defined by Kruspe. One reason all of these are
different is that they are (quite sensibly) grammatical
definitions rooted in language-specific facts.
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">We need </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">such </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">language-specific
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">grammatical
definitions </span><span style="font-size:12pt">to do
justice to the attested </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">linguistic diversity.</span><span
style="font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"></span><span
style="font-size:12pt">But why stop there? For the
comparative linguist a natural next question is to </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">what extent
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">these </span><span
style="font-size:12pt"></span><span style="font-size:12pt">categories</span><span
style="font-size:12pt"> </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">might be
</span><span style="font-size:12pt">linkable to a common
comparative concept that may help explain
recurrent similarities across languages</span><span
style="font-size:12pt">.</span><span
style="font-size:12pt">
<span
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple
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font-size:12pt">
Paraphrasing Dryer (1998), "when we do find such
similarities, it is at least convenient to employ labels
that have been employed for similar word classes". The
term 'ideophone', understood as a typological notion,
is just such a label</span><span
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,"Apple
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font-size:12pt">. </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><span
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style="font-size:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt">One
demonstration of the utility of this label is that it
has helped to unify findings from disparate languages. </span></span><span
style="font-size:12pt">For instance, we've pointed
to remarkable convergence in morphosyntactic behaviour for
ideophone-like categories </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">in 10 disparate languages in our
2017 Journal of Linguistics paper, a finding that is
directly related to their proposed definition as words
depictive of sensory imagery, and that has since been
replicated in Basque, Luhya, Amazonian Kichwa, and Wao
Terero.</span></div>
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That said, I think the definition introduced in my 2012
paper can be improved upon. One formal feature <span
style="font-size:12pt">I've recently proposed to add is
that </span><span style="font-size:12pt">ideophones </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">tend to be an open lexical class.
This captures the ideophone systems of Basque, Japanese,
Zulu, Siwu, Gbaya, etc</span><span style="font-size:12pt">,
while excluding</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> adjacent
or orthogonal </span><span style="font-size:12pt">phenomena
like phonaesthemes, depicting constructions in signed
languages, and (in some languages) onomatopoeia. According
to this </span><span style="font-size:12pt">revised
comparative </span><span style="font-size:12pt">definition,
a canonical ideophone is a member of an open lexical class
of marked words that depict sensory imagery. It can
no doubt be further sharpened and improved, but </span><span
style="font-size:12pt">it captures 5 important dimensions
of ideophone-like categories across languages and
so allows for a more objective systematic comparative
treatment of ideophones and adjacent phenomena than would
be allowed by sticking only to language-specific
descriptive categories.</span></div>
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I write about these matters in a <span
style="font-size:12pt">forthcoming chapter on "'Ideophone'
as a comparative concept" (</span>happy to share
the uncorrected proofs if you send me an email).<span
style="font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
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<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Best,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Mark Dingemanse</span></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt">Refs cited:</span><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12pt"></span></p>
<div
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Alexandre, Pierre. 1966. Préliminaire à une présentation
des idéophones Bulu. In J. Lukas (ed.), Neue Afrikanische
Studien, Hamburger Beiträge zur Afrika-Kunde, 9–28.
Hamburg: Deutsches Institut für Afrika-Forschung.</div>
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<div><br>
</div>
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Dingemanse, Mark & Kimi Akita. 2017. An inverse
relation between expressiveness and grammatical
integration: on the morphosyntactic typology of
ideophones, with special reference to Japanese.
Journal of Linguistics 53(3). 501–532. DOI:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://doi.org/10.1017/S002222671600030X">https://doi.org/10.1017/S002222671600030X</a></div>
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<br>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt">Dingemanse, Mark. 2019.
‘Ideophone’ as a comparative concept. In Kimi Akita
& Prashant Pardeshi (eds.), Ideophones,
Mimetics, Expressives, 13–34. Amsterdam: John
Benjamins.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"> </span></div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div
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font-size:16px">
<span>Dryer, Matthew S. 1997. Are grammatical relations
universal? In Joan Bybee, John Haiman, & Sandra A.
Thompson (eds.), Essays on Language Function and
Language Type, 115–143. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.</span><br>
</div>
<div
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<span><br>
</span></div>
<div
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font-size:16px">
<span style="font-size:12pt">Samarin, William J. 1965.
Perspective on African ideophones. African Studies
24(2). 117–121.</span><br>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<p
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Samarin, William J. 1967. Determining the meaning of
ideophones. Journal of West African Languages 4(2). 35–41.</div>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
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<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 19, 2019 7:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Lingtyp Digest, Vol 54, Issue 10</font>
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<div class="x_PlainText">Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic
categories<br>
(Martin Haspelmath)<br>
2. R: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone semantic
categories<br>
(Paolo Ramat)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:55:09 +0100<br>
From: Martin Haspelmath
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de"><haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone
semantic<br>
categories<br>
Message-ID: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:5C912CFD.405@shh.mpg.de"><5C912CFD.405@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
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<br>
Jeffrey Heath makes a very important point here.
It's easy to think of a <br>
typical exemplar of an ideophone, and this is so
different from other <br>
types of words that the special term "ideophone"
seems useful. But <br>
exemplar-based concepts give us subjective
stereotypes, not comparative <br>
concepts that can be used for objective
cross-linguistic comparison.<br>
<br>
There are other terms of this kind in linguistics
("word", "clitic", <br>
"agglutination", "agreement") – they seem useful
because everyone can <br>
think of a salient exemplar, but they are undefined,
so we cannot really <br>
use them for quantitative cross-linguistic
comparison.<br>
<br>
(The only definition of "ideophone" that I could
think of is <br>
"obligatorily duplicated forms that can be used as
adverbials" – this <br>
would include the most typical cases, and would
exclude cases like Greek <br>
sighá-sighá 'slowly', because sighá on its own is
possible as well, if I <br>
remember correctly. The definition would exclude
many of the cases <br>
included by Dingemanse, of course.)<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19.03.19 12:07, Heath Jeffrey wrote:<br>
> How do you define "ideophone"? Are English
verbs twinkle and sputter <br>
> ideophones? Are onomatopoeias ideophones? What
about adjectival <br>
> intensifiers like brand in brand new?<br>
><br>
> There is no cross-linguistically applicable
grammatical definition of <br>
> this concept, i.e. with necessary and
sufficient morphosyntactic <br>
> properties. Dingemanse's universal definition
of ideophones is, for <br>
> good reason, limited to the convergence of
phonological and semantic <br>
> markedness. Both of these are intrinsically
vague and subjective. His <br>
> definition makes no mention of morphosyntactic
properties. In specific <br>
> languages, morphosyntactically valid word-class
categories often <br>
> include some (intuitively) ideophone-like stems
along with some <br>
> (intuitively) non-ideophone-like stems, and
exclude other <br>
> (intuitively) ideophone-like stems. For
example, onomatopoeias <br>
> (sometimes claimed to be the universal bedrock
of ideophones) often <br>
> constitute a morphosyntactic class of their
own, distinct from the <br>
> class containing many (intuitively)
ideophone-like stems. So there is <br>
> no universal core for ideophone, comparable to
that often claimed for <br>
> adjective or numeral.<br>
><br>
> Any crosslinguistic survey of ideophone
semantics or phonology, even <br>
> if limited to West Africa, will have to wrestle
with the vagueness of <br>
> the concept.<br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> *From:* Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf <br>
> of Johann-Mattis List
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mattis.list@lingulist.de"><mattis.list@lingulist.de></a><br>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 19, 2019 5:47 AM<br>
> *To:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of
Ideophone semantic <br>
> categories<br>
> I'd recommend all of you to see if the concepts
you want to use there<br>
> appear (already) in Concepticon at <br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<br>
> If not,<br>
> and you publish your list, we'll gladly add
them, if they are not too<br>
> idiosyncratic, but I'd expect they won't if you
go for cross-linguistic<br>
> studies as a goal.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
><br>
> Mattis<br>
><br>
> On 19/03/2019 10.32, Françoise Rose wrote:<br>
> > Hi Ian,<br>
> ><br>
> > Here is a list of general actions or
states that are expressed (often<br>
> > more specifically) by Teko ideophones and
that do not seem to fit in<br>
> > your current list.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Blowing<br>
> ><br>
> > Be dark<br>
> ><br>
> > Closed eyes / Open eyes<br>
> ><br>
> > Grimace<br>
> ><br>
> > Snoaring<br>
> ><br>
> > Tearing<br>
> ><br>
> > Entering /exiting<br>
> ><br>
> > Winking<br>
> ><br>
> > Shooting<br>
> ><br>
> > Falling<br>
> ><br>
> > Slip<br>
> ><br>
> > Jumping<br>
> ><br>
> > Go up/down<br>
> ><br>
> > Push<br>
> ><br>
> > Bubbles<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > You can read about Teko ideophones in my
grammar. P. 400-409<br>
> ><br>
> > Ros Rose, Françoise. /Grammaire de
l’émérillon Teko, Une Langue<br>
> > Tupi-Guarani de Guyane Française/. Langues
et Sociétés d’Amérique<br>
> > Traditionnelle 10. Louvain: Peeters, 2011.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Very best,<br>
> ><br>
> > Françoise<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *De :* Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
*De la part<br>
> > de* Joo Ian<br>
> > *Envoyé :* mardi 19 mars 2019 09:20<br>
> > *À :* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> > *Cc :* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com">caroljuan27@gmail.com</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com">mariaflax@gmail.com</a><br>
> > *Objet :* [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of
Ideophone semantic categories<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Dear all,<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I am currently trying to make a list of
semantic categories of<br>
> > ideophones, in order to do a
cross-linguistic comparison (for example,<br>
> > do ideophones whose meanings are related
to brightness show similarity<br>
> > across different languages?)<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Here’s my list so far, created out of my
intuition and previous <br>
> literature.<br>
> ><br>
> > I wonder if you have any meanings that you
would like to add to or<br>
> > remove from the list.<br>
> ><br>
> > The goal is to make a list of ideophone
meanings so that most languages<br>
> > that have a sizeable ideophone inventory
would have at least several<br>
> > ideophones that belong to each category.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > *Semantic Categories*<br>
> ><br>
> > Air<br>
> ><br>
> > Anxiety<br>
> ><br>
> > Bright<br>
> ><br>
> > Clean<br>
> ><br>
> > Clear-cut/Vivid<br>
> ><br>
> > Crying<br>
> ><br>
> > Dirty/Messy<br>
> ><br>
> > Dry<br>
> ><br>
> > Eating/Drinking<br>
> ><br>
> > Fast<br>
> ><br>
> > Flow<br>
> ><br>
> > Friction<br>
> ><br>
> > Hitting/Beating<br>
> ><br>
> > Hungry/Thirsty<br>
> ><br>
> > Laughter<br>
> ><br>
> > Looking<br>
> ><br>
> > Plenty<br>
> ><br>
> > Ringing<br>
> ><br>
> > Ripping/Cutting<br>
> ><br>
> > Romantic<br>
> ><br>
> > Rotation<br>
> ><br>
> > Rough<br>
> ><br>
> > Rupture<br>
> ><br>
> > Scattering<br>
> ><br>
> > Secretly<br>
> ><br>
> > Shaking/Vibration<br>
> ><br>
> > Slow/Lazy<br>
> ><br>
> > Soft<br>
> ><br>
> > Solid<br>
> ><br>
> > Speaking<br>
> ><br>
> > Stop<br>
> ><br>
> > Walking/Running<br>
> ><br>
> > Wet<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > I would appreciate any comments or
advices.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > From Seoul,<br>
> ><br>
> > Ian<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> > <br>
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-- <br>
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human
History<br>
Kahlaische Strasse 10 <br>
D-07745 Jena<br>
&<br>
Leipzig University<br>
Institut fuer Anglistik<br>
IPF 141199<br>
D-04081 Leipzig<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 19:10:35 +0100<br>
From: "Paolo Ramat" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:paoram@unipv.it"><paoram@unipv.it></a><br>
To: "'Martin Haspelmath'"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de"><haspelmath@shh.mpg.de></a>,<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] R: A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone
semantic<br>
categories<br>
Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:000701d4de7f$0d16fc10$2744f430$@unipv.it"><000701d4de7f$0d16fc10$2744f430$@unipv.it></a><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
As a contribution to the ideophones discussion I’m
attaching a very interesting article by the
ethnolinguist Maurizio Gnerre which will appear in
the next issue of the “Archivio Glottologico
Italiano” (a monographic issue dedicated to
‘deixis’)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Paolo<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Da: Lingtyp [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>]
Per conto di Martin Haspelmath<br>
Inviato: martedì 19 marzo 2019 18:55<br>
A: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone
semantic categories<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jeffrey Heath makes a very important point here.
It's easy to think of a typical exemplar of an
ideophone, and this is so different from other types
of words that the special term "ideophone" seems
useful. But exemplar-based concepts give us
subjective stereotypes, not comparative concepts
that can be used for objective cross-linguistic
comparison.
<br>
<br>
There are other terms of this kind in linguistics
("word", "clitic", "agglutination", "agreement") –
they seem useful because everyone can think of a
salient exemplar, but they are undefined, so we
cannot really use them for quantitative
cross-linguistic comparison.<br>
<br>
(The only definition of "ideophone" that I could
think of is "obligatorily duplicated forms that can
be used as adverbials" – this would include the most
typical cases, and would exclude cases like Greek
sighá-sighá 'slowly', because sighá on its own is
possible as well, if I remember correctly. The
definition would exclude many of the cases included
by Dingemanse, of course.)<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 19.03.19 12:07, Heath Jeffrey wrote:<br>
<br>
How do you define "ideophone"? Are English verbs
twinkle and sputter ideophones? Are onomatopoeias
ideophones? What about adjectival intensifiers like
brand in brand new?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
There is no cross-linguistically applicable
grammatical definition of this concept, i.e. with
necessary and sufficient morphosyntactic properties.
Dingemanse's universal definition of ideophones is,
for good reason, limited to the convergence of
phonological and semantic markedness. Both of these
are intrinsically vague and subjective. His
definition makes no mention of morphosyntactic
properties. In specific languages,
morphosyntactically valid word-class categories
often include some (intuitively) ideophone-like
stems along with some (intuitively)
non-ideophone-like stems, and exclude other
(intuitively) ideophone-like stems. For example,
onomatopoeias (sometimes claimed to be the universal
bedrock of ideophones) often constitute a
morphosyntactic class of their own, distinct from
the class containing many (intuitively)
ideophone-like stems. So there is no universal core
for ideophone, comparable to that often claimed for
adjective or numeral.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Any crosslinguistic survey of ideophone semantics or
phonology, even if limited to West Africa, will have
to wrestle with the vagueness of the concept.
<br>
<br>
_____ <br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of Ideophone
semantic categories <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I'd recommend all of you to see if the concepts you
want to use there<br>
appear (already) in Concepticon at <a
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If not,<br>
and you publish your list, we'll gladly add them, if
they are not too<br>
idiosyncratic, but I'd expect they won't if you go
for cross-linguistic<br>
studies as a goal.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Mattis<br>
<br>
On 19/03/2019 10.32, Françoise Rose wrote:<br>
> Hi Ian,<br>
> <br>
> Here is a list of general actions or states
that are expressed (often<br>
> more specifically) by Teko ideophones and that
do not seem to fit in<br>
> your current list.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Blowing<br>
> <br>
> Be dark<br>
> <br>
> Closed eyes / Open eyes<br>
> <br>
> Grimace<br>
> <br>
> Snoaring<br>
> <br>
> Tearing<br>
> <br>
> Entering /exiting<br>
> <br>
> Winking<br>
> <br>
> Shooting<br>
> <br>
> Falling<br>
> <br>
> Slip<br>
> <br>
> Jumping<br>
> <br>
> Go up/down<br>
> <br>
> Push<br>
> <br>
> Bubbles<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> You can read about Teko ideophones in my
grammar. P. 400-409<br>
> <br>
> Ros Rose, Françoise. /Grammaire de l’émérillon
Teko, Une Langue<br>
> Tupi-Guarani de Guyane Française/. Langues et
Sociétés d’Amérique<br>
> Traditionnelle 10. Louvain: Peeters, 2011.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Very best,<br>
> <br>
> Françoise<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *De :* Lingtyp <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
*De la part<br>
> de* Joo Ian<br>
> *Envoyé :* mardi 19 mars 2019 09:20<br>
> *À :* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a
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<br>
> *Cc :* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com">caroljuan27@gmail.com</a> <<a
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href="mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com">mailto:caroljuan27@gmail.com</a>>
; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com">mariaflax@gmail.com</a> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com">mailto:mariaflax@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] A "Swadesh List" of
Ideophone semantic categories<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dear all,<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I am currently trying to make a list of
semantic categories of<br>
> ideophones, in order to do a cross-linguistic
comparison (for example,<br>
> do ideophones whose meanings are related to
brightness show similarity<br>
> across different languages?)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Here’s my list so far, created out of my
intuition and previous literature.<br>
> <br>
> I wonder if you have any meanings that you
would like to add to or<br>
> remove from the list.<br>
> <br>
> The goal is to make a list of ideophone
meanings so that most languages<br>
> that have a sizeable ideophone inventory would
have at least several<br>
> ideophones that belong to each category.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> *Semantic Categories*<br>
> <br>
> Air<br>
> <br>
> Anxiety<br>
> <br>
> Bright<br>
> <br>
> Clean<br>
> <br>
> Clear-cut/Vivid<br>
> <br>
> Crying<br>
> <br>
> Dirty/Messy<br>
> <br>
> Dry<br>
> <br>
> Eating/Drinking<br>
> <br>
> Fast<br>
> <br>
> Flow<br>
> <br>
> Friction<br>
> <br>
> Hitting/Beating<br>
> <br>
> Hungry/Thirsty<br>
> <br>
> Laughter<br>
> <br>
> Looking<br>
> <br>
> Plenty<br>
> <br>
> Ringing<br>
> <br>
> Ripping/Cutting<br>
> <br>
> Romantic<br>
> <br>
> Rotation<br>
> <br>
> Rough<br>
> <br>
> Rupture<br>
> <br>
> Scattering<br>
> <br>
> Secretly<br>
> <br>
> Shaking/Vibration<br>
> <br>
> Slow/Lazy<br>
> <br>
> Soft<br>
> <br>
> Solid<br>
> <br>
> Speaking<br>
> <br>
> Stop<br>
> <br>
> Walking/Running<br>
> <br>
> Wet<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I would appreciate any comments or advices.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> From Seoul,<br>
> <br>
> Ian<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a> <<a
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)<br>
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human
History<br>
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&<br>
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Institut fuer Anglistik <br>
IPF 141199<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig
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