<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Thanks for the comments David, Jurgen and David! </div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">The Nuuchahnulth data is fascinating and the copying phenomena is particularly striking! There's nothing like copying in the domain of coordinate (or coordinate-like) constructions in Chacobo. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Basically what I'm looking at are constructions like what follows, where the causative cannot be elided in certain constructions, but can be in others</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Asyndetic coordination: =ma causative wide-scope is banned, it must occur in both forms.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><div><img width="471" height="175" alt="image.png" src="cid:ii_juk55k9s0"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Syndetic same subject coordination, the =ma *can* (does not have to) be elided and have wide scope.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><div><img width="478" height="199" style="margin-right: 0px;" alt="image.png" src="cid:ii_juk570s91"><br></div><div><br></div><div>There are some valence markers that are not fully productive (they only occur with certain roots) and these ones cannot be elided under coordination. The passive is an example of a valence-adjustment morpheme that is fully productive and also cannot elide in any construction from what I can tell.</div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><div><img width="512" height="236" style="margin-right: 0px;" alt="image.png" src="cid:ii_juk593fz2"></div><div>But interestingly it can variably order with the causative morpheme - so there's evidence that it is structurally in the same position, but for some reason it cannot elide. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Adam<span><span><br> </span></span></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:40 AM David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Dear Adam,<br>
</p>
<p>The following Tagalog sentence was a ubiquitous campaign slogan
during the 1986 presidential elections in the Philippines (in
support of incumbent candidate Ferdinand Marcos and his infamous
wife Imelda):</p>
<p>(1) Mag Marcos at Marcos tayo <br>
TOPFOC.IMPF Marcos and Marcos 1PL.INCL.TOP<br>
'Let's Marcos and Marcos'<br>
</p>
In (1), the conjunction "Marcos at Marcos" is in the scope of "Mag",
which expresses topic-focus voice and also imperfect aspect. <br>
<br>
In standard Tagalog orthography, "mag" (and other similar forms) are
written joined on to their following hosts, though in recent social
media I've noticed that occasionally they are written separately.
In the following article, I used evidence from a ludling to argue
that "mag" and other similar forms are clitics rather than prefixes:<br>
<br>
<p class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918ReferencesT"><span lang="EN-US">Gil, David (1996)
"How to Speak Backwards in Tagalog", in <i>Pan-Asiatic Linguistics, Proceedings of the Fourth
International
Symposium on Language and Linguistics</i>, <i>January
8-10, 1996, </i>Institute of Language and Culture for Rural
Development,
Mahidol University at Salaya, Volume 1, 297-306.</span></p>
<p class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918ReferencesT"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
On the other hand, I think it is pretty clear that these forms are
not separate words, though obviously this needs to be argued for
explicitly ...<br>
<br>
I suspect that somebody with a better knowledge of Tagalog could
come up with additional examples such as (1).<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918moz-cite-prefix">On 16/04/2019 04:24, Adam James Ross
Tallman wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Hello
everyone,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">I'm
wondering if anyone has come across cases of
valence morphemes/derivations described as "affixes" or
"clitics" that can have wide-scope over coordinated verbs,
like in English (imagining the passive is just marked by
"was").</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">"The
monkey was lifted up and untied (by his mother)"</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">but
where the passive morpheme is analyzed as an affix or a clitic
(by someone) - presumably in such cases there would be no
"government" of the verb forms as there is in English.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">I've
found in Chacobo the bound affix/clitics vary in terms of
whether they can have wide scope depending on the type of
coordinate/subordinate construction, and right now the
difference seems to be a somewhat arbitrary structural
fact (indeed I just analyze it as a difference in the "size"
of the constituent being coordinated). </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">But
I have a suspicion that there is something else about the
semantics of valency and its relationship to wide-scope, so
any pointers would be very appreciated. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">best,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(76,17,48);font-family:monospace,monospace">Adam<br clear="all">
</div>
<br>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918gmail_signature" dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam
J.R. Tallman</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">PhD,
University of Texas at Austin<br>
</font>
<div><font face="times new roman, serif">Investigador
del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br>
</font>
<div><font face="times new roman, serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>ELDP -- </font>Postdoctorante<br>
</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>CNRS
-- </font>Dynamique Du Langage (UMR
5596)</font></font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918mimeAttachmentHeader">
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<br>
<pre class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="gmail-m_-1023889225717723918moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Office Phone (Germany): +49-3641686834
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81281162816
</pre>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">PhD, University of Texas at Austin<br></font><div><font face="times new roman, serif">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br></font><div><font face="times new roman, serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>ELDP -- </font>Postdoctorante<br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>CNRS -- </font>Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)</font></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>