<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Hmm...I never thought of that parameter, but can certainly sympathize with it. I wonder how many other linguistic terms are tongue-twisters</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">for non-native speakers (including terms from other languages that may be hard for English-speakers, of course). What about, for example,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">defamiliarization, anacoluthon, switch reference, zeugma, inalienable, coindexed, exclusivity, haplology, hypotaxis, irrealis, scrambling,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">theta, tmesis, reflexivity, parallelism, pleonastic, expletive, exclusivity... It would be pretty hard to come up with linguistic terms that could</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">be easily pronounced in any language, like the famous invention of "Kodak." I'm afraid we're stuck with what we've got.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dan :)<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 9:12 AM Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se">oesten@ling.su.se</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="en-SE">Dan Slobin said: “Like Joan Bybee, I opted for
<i>grammaticization</i> for its economy and elegance”. The only thing I have against
<i>grammaticization </i></span><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">is that in spite of its elegance, it can be a tongue twister for a non-native speaker like me, with three different fricatives and two different diphthongs
in a row at the end.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">Btw, I remember that Microsoft Word used to tell you: “Avoid jargon words such as
</span><i><span style="font-size:12pt">grammatic</span></i><i><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">al</span></i><i><span style="font-size:12pt">ization</span></i><i><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">”.<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
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<li class="gmail-m_-1147420172781378382MsoListParagraph" style="color:windowtext;margin-left:0cm">
<span lang="EN-US">östen<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext" lang="en-SE"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>MM Jocelyne Fernandez<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 10 June 2019 16:50<br>
<b>To:</b> Aimée Lahaussois <<a href="mailto:aimee.lahaussois@cnrs.fr" target="_blank">aimee.lahaussois@cnrs.fr</a>>; Dan I. SLOBIN <<a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">slobin@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] grammaticalized v grammaticized<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>This "equipping" was also actually implied in my use of the term "grammaticisation"– and I did collaborate with Auroux while being both members of the CNRS National Commission 30 years ago, although he may have preferred a still shorter form of the word!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Any way, not a mere whim of field linguists, the difference between "grammati(ci)sation" and "grammaticalisation" remains an essential one: the creation of grammar tools is only one of the explaining factors for the typological evolution of a language,
since it is not automatically validated by language users.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>M.M.Jocelyne Fernandez-Vest<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Le 10/06/2019 à 08:42, Aimée Lahaussois a écrit :<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">And for yet another usage of ‘grammatisation’: historians of linguistics use the term for the process of ‘equipping’ languages with tools such as grammars or dictionaries. Sylvain Auroux was a big promoter of the concept.
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.persee.fr/doc/hel_0247-8897_1995_num_11_1_3396" target="_blank">https://www.persee.fr/doc/hel_0247-8897_1995_num_11_1_3396</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Aimée<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 10, 2019, at 5:00 AM, Dan I. SLOBIN <<a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">slobin@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Just to muddy the waters a bit further, in the two volumes emerging from the 1988 Oregon conference (Traugott & Heine, 1991),<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Jim Matisoff went even further in his paper, "Areal and Universal Dimensions of Grammatization in Lahu (Matissof, 1991: 381):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">"The term <i>grammaticalization</i>, despite its heptasyllabic cacophony (the more concise
<i>grammaticization</i>, or even<i> grammatization</i><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">would be preferable) represents one of the most important phenomena in diachronic linguistics. Grammat(ic[al])ization is<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">inherently a diachronic concept."<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Like Joan Bybee, I opted for <i>
grammaticization</i> for its economy and elegance, as I saw it; I continue to use that form, avoiding<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">the nuances that have emerged since between the erstwhile synonyms.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">I appreciate Bernhard's placing of the emerging distinction between
<i>grammaticalization</i> and <i>grammaticization</i> in the context of<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">a general psycholinguistic process, citing Bréal and Eve Clark who elaborated the point I made in an earlier posting.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">The editors of the Oregon conference volume accepted all three variants as titles of individual papers.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Dan</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Elizabeth Closs Traugott & Bernd Heine (Eds.) (1991).
<i>Approaches to grammaticalization. </i>Vol. 1: <i>Focus on theoretical and</i></span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10pt">methodological issues. </span>
</i><span style="font-size:10pt">Vol. 2: <i>Focus on types of grammatical markers.
</i>Amsterdam/Philadelphia: John Benjamins.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">James A. Matisoff (1991). Areal and universal dimensions of grammatization in Lahu.
<i>Ibid., </i>383-454.</span><span style="font-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Aimée Lahaussois<br>
Histoire des théories linguistiques<br>
CNRS & Université Paris Diderot<br>
01 57 27 57 78<br>
<br>
<a href="http://htl.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/laboratoire/membres/lahaussois-en" target="_blank">http://htl.linguist.univ-paris-diderot.fr/laboratoire/membres/lahaussois-en</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Prof. Marie-Madeleine Jocelyne FERNANDEZ-VEST <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">CNRS & Université Sorbonne Nouvelle <u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Dan I. Slobin </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">Professor Emeritus of
Psychology and Linguistics</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">University of California,
Berkeley</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">email: <a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">slobin@berkeley.edu</a></font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman">address: 2323 Rose St.,
Berkeley, CA 94708</font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><a href="http://ihd.berkeley.edu/members.htm#slobin" target="_blank">http://ihd.berkeley.edu/members.htm#slobin</a></font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 0pt"><i><span style="font-size:8pt"><font face="Times New Roman"><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> </font></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
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