<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi All</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for all the suggested tips and reading. I look forward to reading through what people have suggested. </div><div><br></div><div>As Jefferey stated, this is a venerable discussion. However, there are few things people have picked up on that I will just quickly comment on by way of response for all your helpful comments. The first is some general points about syntactic ergativity and the other is co-reference between matrix and subordinate clauses. These points are both relevant to the Ngkolmpu data but crucially, its the very specific combination of these that I think might be unique in Ngkolmpu. </div><div><br></div><div>It is clear that the Ngkolmpu data points to a level of syntactic ergativity; what is more interesting perhaps is the specific manifestation of this: a restriction on co-reference that applies to the role of co-referential NP in the matrix clause but not in the subordinate clause.</div><div><br></div><div>This brings us to co-reference. This may show ergative alignment (as described for Yidiɲ in Dixon 1977) or accusative (as with most of the examples in Austin 1981). </div><div><br></div><div>If we take a broader typology of co-reference, one that is classified by the types of restrictions placed on co-reference independent of alignment, we can make a few generalisations. Co-reference in this sense might include switch reference systems (i.e. clause-modifying clauses) & relative clauses (i.e. noun-modifying clauses). </div><div><br></div><div>In cases of clause-modifying clauses (i.e. switch reference), there is a (gapped) argument in the subordinate clause and there is an marker which indicates which argument in the matrix clause this is co-referential with. In all the examples that I have seen so far, this involves matched alignment, between clauses, i.e. Diyari or the other languages in Austin (1981); crucially for us is that it is a restriction on both the matrix and subordinate clause.</div><div><br></div><div>By way of note, Ngkolmpu displays a set of simultaneous action clauses very similar to this. These involve a non-finite clause in which the verb takes a case marker which indicates whether the omitted S/A argument of the non-finite clause is co-referential with either the S/A or the O of the matrix clause, just like Diyari.</div><div><br></div><div>In terms of relative clauses, the restrictions have traditionally described as a restriction of which <i>role the relativised NP may play in the subordinate clause </i>(c.f. Keenan and Comrie 1977). This may be S/A as in Malagasy or S/O as in Dyirbal. The data from Yidiɲ appears to show a restriction on which argument may be co-referential in both the matrix clause and the subordinate clause i.e. S/O for both. Finally, what I still think is unique to Ngkolmpu (as Peter pointed out) is a restriction on which argument of the matrix clause may be co-referential without any restriction on which role it plays in the subordinate clause. I still want to get more data on this of course.</div><div><br></div><div>Jeffrey Heath has also brought up functional motivations for these type of constraints. I don't have the time to unpack every thing he has said there but to answer his question: </div><div>If you wanted to say <font face="arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">“The dog, who is big, will bite that man”</span> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">and wanted to maintain the relative clause type structure you would have to say something like: </span></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face="arial, sans-serif">'The dog will bite that man, he (subordinate marker) is big' and this would be ambiguous between which argument in the matrix clause it refers to: it could be the dog or the man who is big' or you could say: 'The dog will bite that man, the dog (subordinate marker) is big'. </font></span></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for all your comments</div><div>Matt</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:23 PM Eitan Grossman <<a href="mailto:eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il">eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">A wonderful article that addresses the issues raised by Jeffrey is Marianne Mithun's 2002 paper 'Understanding and explaining applicatives.' <div><br></div><div><a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.691.3166&rep=rep1&type=pdf" target="_blank">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.691.3166&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:58 PM Heath Jeffrey <<a href="mailto:schweinehaxen@hotmail.com" target="_blank">schweinehaxen@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:16pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
This is a venerable discussion, and many contributions old and new mix two issues: a) which underlying categories (e<span lang="X-NONE">.g. subject, object) in matrix and subordinate clause can<span> </span></span>be coindexed in<span lang="X-NONE">a<span> </span></span>matrix-<span lang="X-NONE">subordinate</span>construction<span lang="X-NONE">(such
as relative clause </span>and switch-reference<span lang="X-NONE">, and b) wh</span>ich <span><span lang="X-NONE">surface categories can function in this way. Many languages have valency-changing processes (passive, antipassive, applicative,<span> </span></span></span>…)
that have one or more discourse functions in simple main clauses, but are deployed opportunistically in subordinated clauses solely to mark a specific underlying NP as the coindexed one. This is the functionalist way of describing the phenomena. It differs
from the idea favored by typologists that surface constraints are what drive the phenomena, since such constraints by themselves have no functional basis and are far from being universal. What would be the point (i.e., the evolutionary motivation) for a language
to require absolutive status for coindexation in switch-reference or relativization, unless this is accompanied by a seamless mechanism to allow underlying transitive subjects (which are of greater referential value than objects) to be marked?</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:16pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:16pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;line-height:16pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
Therefore the question for Matthew is how the starred translation *“The dog, who is big, will bite that man” is expressed in Ngkolmpu. It might be better to use a nonadjectival relative clause since presumably “The dog, who is big” can simply be rephased as
“The big dog”. It might also be better to use a restrictive rather than parenthetical relative. Something like “The dog that bit he child ran away”.<span></span></p>
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</div>
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<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 22, 2019 12:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Seino van Breugel <<a href="mailto:seinobreugel@gmail.com" target="_blank">seinobreugel@gmail.com</a>>; Matthew Carroll <<a href="mailto:mattcarrollj@gmail.com" target="_blank">mattcarrollj@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Query about constraints on co-referential arguments in matrix clauses</font>
<div> </div>
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<div id="gmail-m_-4913374813700554557gmail-m_-6340469556007360391x_divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Hola Matt,</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Panoan languages have a set of same-subject markers where the matrix clause coreferential argument must be S, and another set where it must be A. The dependent clause argument can be either S or A. Hope this is useful.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Saludos,</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Pilar</p>
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<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 21, 2019 9:37:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matthew Carroll <<a href="mailto:mattcarrollj@gmail.com" target="_blank">mattcarrollj@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG" target="_blank">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Query about constraints on co-referential arguments in matrix clauses</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Matthew,
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<div>My 2010 article on attributive clauses, published in Studies in Language, may be useful to you. I have attached a copy.</div>
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<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Seino<br clear="all">
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_-4913374813700554557gmail-m_-6340469556007360391x_x_gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 3:30 AM Matthew Carroll <<a href="mailto:mattcarrollj@gmail.com" target="_blank">mattcarrollj@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail-m_-4913374813700554557gmail-m_-6340469556007360391x_x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am curious about restrictions on arguments in matrix clauses that are co-referential with those in subordinate clauses.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Restrictions on the role that a co-referential argument may play in a subordinate clause are well established in the literature (Keenan and Comrie 1977, and others). Rather I am interested in restrictions that may apply to the role that co-referential
argument may play in the <i>matrix</i> clause.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example, in Ngkolmpu a Yam language spoken in West Papua that I have been working on, there is a relative clause strategy involving a right adjoined relative clause. The co-referential argument may serve
<i>any role in the subordinate clause</i> but can only be the <i>absolutive argument of the matrix clause.</i> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><span lang="EN-GB" style="text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">1.<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"Times New Roman"">
</span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">krar-w irepe pi srampu [<sup>n</sup>top mi bori ye]</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify"> dog</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps">-sg.erg</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">man</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps">dist</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">he:will:bite:him</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">big</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps">rel.abs comp</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">
</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">is</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify"> 'The dog will bite that man
</span><i style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">who is big</i><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;text-align:justify">’</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
<b>*</b></span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="text-align:justify;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">’The dog,
<i>who is big</i>, will bite that man.’</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Example (1) can only be interpreted as 'the man who is big' and never 'the dog who is big'. This has been confirmed through careful and systematic elicitation on this topic and confirmed by examples in my growing corpus (currently at about 1500 naturalistic
utterances). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dixon (1977) notes similar restrictions in Yidiɲ. On page 323 of his grammar he posits the <span style="font-size:11pt;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">coreferentiality
constraint</span>: "<i>There must be an NP common to the main clause and subordinate clause, and it must be in surface S or O function in each clause." </i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div>Unlike the Ngkolmpu example, this applies to both the matrix NP and the subordinate NP which only applies to the matrix NP. Yet, importantly for my purpose, does place a restriction on the role of the matrix NP. I am curious to see if people know of other
examples of these kind of constraints in matrix NPs? or perhaps there is a paper that I have missed in my (rather brief) survey of the literature on the topic. <br>
<br>
Regards,</div>
<div>Matt</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Matthew J. Carroll</div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
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