<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear all,</div><div><br></div>Yet another parallel to the Shan case is found in Korandje, a Northern Songhay language of Algeria. Proto-Northern Songhay *yer "we" and *indi "you pl." would regularly have yielded ya and ndzi; instead, we find ya-yu and ndz-yu, with the regular productive NP plural marker yu added. The short forms without -yu are still reflected in subject agreement marking as prefixes, but can no longer be used as independent words. (For more details, see pp. 48-50 of my 2010 PhD thesis: <a href="http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/13430/1/souag-thesis-final.pdf">http://eprints.soas.ac.uk/13430/1/souag-thesis-final.pdf</a> .)<br><div><br></div><div>But pronoun reinforcement isn't always as simple as adding a plural marker or even a word marked for plurality. Other pronominal paradigms within the language can also be pressed into service, like Syriac ḥnan "we" < proto-Semitic *niḥnu, where the final -an presumably reflects the Syriac 1pl possessive -an < *-a-na, marked for person as well as number. Similar cases can be found in Berber, eg Yefren 2pl knim (cp. El-Fogaha kni), where the -m is most likely taken from the 2pl verbal subject agreement ending -m.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes</div><div>Lameen Souag</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 11:56 PM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns (Jeremy Bradley)<br>
2. Re: Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
(Bernhard Wälchli)<br>
3. Re: Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
(Edith A Moravcsik)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 19:40:05 +0100<br>
From: Jeremy Bradley <<a href="mailto:jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at" target="_blank">jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:3043cf29-5263-e2cc-ba2e-89a29c8ccc13@univie.ac.at" target="_blank">3043cf29-5263-e2cc-ba2e-89a29c8ccc13@univie.ac.at</a>><br>
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<br>
This happens in Mari dialects as well: the pronouns nine 'these' and <br>
nuno 'those; they' can be encountered with the adnominal plural marker <br>
-βlak: nine-βlak, nuno-βlak.<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Jeremy<br>
<br>
On 16/11/2019 15:21, Johanna Laakso wrote:<br>
> The Hungarian case is a bit different: the -nk element in "mink" ‘we’ <br>
> is, as Edith writes, a possessor or subject-person 1PL marker. But the <br>
> use of general common-noun plural markers on plural pronouns actually <br>
> does occur in some Uralic languages (and also independently of <br>
> contacts with Turkic). In quite a few Finnic varieties, we have <br>
> nominative plural markers (Proto-Finnic -t or its reflexes) on the <br>
> plural personal (and sometimes also demonstrative) pronouns, as in Far <br>
> North Finnish dialects (also Kven and Meänkieli) met, tet, het ‘we, <br>
> you.PL, they’ (~ Standard Finnish me, te, he). In the inflection of <br>
> Finnic plural pronouns, the plural element occurs regularly, as in <br>
> Standard Finnish me-i-lle we-PL-ADESSIVE ‘to us’ (cf. talo-i-lle ‘to <br>
> the houses’). Komi dialects have (as opposed to Standard Komi najö <br>
> ‘they’) also ‘they’ pronouns carrying the regular (a Permic <br>
> innovation) plural marker -jas: najöjas or najas ‘they’.<br>
><br>
> And, in fact, coming back to Hungarian, it regularly builds the plural <br>
> forms of third-person and demonstrative pronouns with the general <br>
> common-noun plural marker -k: ők ‘they’ (ő ‘s/he’), eze-k ‘these’ (ez <br>
> ‘this’), azo-k ‘those’ (az ‘that’).<br>
><br>
> Best<br>
> Johanna<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Univ.Prof. Dr. Johanna Laakso<br>
> Universität Wien, Institut für Europäische und Vergleichende Sprach- <br>
> und Literaturwissenschaft (EVSL)<br>
> Abteilung Finno-Ugristik<br>
> Campus AAKH Spitalgasse 2-4 Hof 7<br>
> A-1090 Wien<br>
> <a href="mailto:johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at" target="_blank">johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at" target="_blank">johanna.laakso@univie.ac.at</a>> • <br>
> <a href="http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://homepage.univie.ac.at/Johanna.Laakso/</a><br>
> Project ELDIA: <a href="http://www.eldia-project.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.eldia-project.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
>> Edith A Moravcsik <<a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu" target="_blank">edith@uwm.edu</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu" target="_blank">edith@uwm.edu</a>>> kirjoitti <br>
>> 15.11.2019 kello 19.52:<br>
>><br>
>> Hello Ponrawee,<br>
>> In Hungarian, the first person plural pronoun is monomorphemic/mi/. <br>
>> However, in some colloquial versions,<br>
>> the form/mink/also occurs. The ending -/nk/is a first person plural <br>
>> suffix on verbs and on possessions, e.g.:<br>
>><br>
>> usz-unk ‘we are swimming’<br>
>> csodá-nk ‘our miracle’’<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Edith M.<br>
>> *From:*Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>>*On Behalf <br>
>> Of*Ponrawee Prasertsom<br>
>> *Sent:*Friday, November 15, 2019 10:01 AM<br>
>> *To:*<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> *Subject:*[Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>> I have been looking at a number of Tai languages and found that in <br>
>> some of these languages, plural pronouns can optionally take a plural <br>
>> marker normally used on common nouns. For instance, in Shan <br>
>> (Southwestern Tai), the third person plural pronoun/khau/can <br>
>> optionally take the plural marker/cɯ(nai)/, viz./khau cɯ(nai)--/at <br>
>> least according to Cushing 1871.<br>
>> Assuming this analysis is correct (if it's not please kindly inform <br>
>> me), I'm wondering how rare this is for pronouns? A quick lookup <br>
>> revealed that a similar phenomenon called "double plural marking" is <br>
>> found in some languages, but seems to be restricted to common nouns <br>
>> only. Does anyone know of any other instances like this for pronouns <br>
>> in other languages?<br>
>> Sources: Cushing, Josiah Nelson. Grammar of the Shan Language. <br>
>> Rangoon: American Mission Press, 1871.<br>
>> Best regards,<br>
>> --<br>
>> Ponrawee Prasertsom<br>
>> Graduate Student<br>
>> Department of Linguistics<br>
>> Faculty of Arts, Chulalongkorn University<br>
>> Bangkok, Thailand<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.<br>
University of Vienna<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.mari-language.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mari-language.com</a><br>
<a href="mailto:jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at" target="_blank">jeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at</a><br>
<br>
Office address:<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:32:39 +0000<br>
From: Bernhard Wälchli <<a href="mailto:bernhard@ling.su.se" target="_blank">bernhard@ling.su.se</a>><br>
To: Ponrawee Prasertsom <<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:52d27b9f5e174d3782df04ee3dab0461@ling.su.se" target="_blank">52d27b9f5e174d3782df04ee3dab0461@ling.su.se</a>><br>
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<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
Bill Croft treats the phenomena in question in his seminal book “Explaining Language Change” (2000: 134) under the heading of “cryptanalysis” (§5.5): “In cryptanalysis, the listener analyses a covert semantic/functional property of a syntactic unit as not grammatically marked, and inserts {obviously it is meant when turning into a speaker again, BW} an overt marker expressing its semantic value.” Some of the examples discussed on this list are given in Bill’s subsection §5.5.3 “Pleonastic double marking / reinforcement”.<br>
I am actually not certain whether this is the only possible interpretation. The overt marker could be inserted because the speaker considers the semantic property not sufficiently marked. I do not think all speakers using reinforcement are unable to analyze the non-reinforced expression (despite frequent claims by purists that using pleonasms is stupid). A more general mechanism that can account for reinforcement - although not the sublte differences in politeness in Turkish - is Lüdtke’s model of quantitative language change. (Croft 2000: 159 discusses it as the “periphrasis-fusion-erosion” cycle.) According to Lüdtke, speech has to be redundant since it occurs in a noisy environment, and this entails in the long run three types of changes for saying the same thing which trigger each other: fewer phonemes (Croft’s term “erosion”), more morphemes (Croft’s “periphrasis”) and fewer morpheme boundaries (Croft’s “fusion”) for conveying the same message. So, aren’t the phenomena under discussion here just instances of this? As in the well-known development of French demonstratives from Latin:<br>
ista N > (ecce)ista N > (c)este N > cette N > cette N(-ci)<br>
hoc > (ecce)hoc > (ç)o > ço > ce > ce(la) > cela > ça<br>
However, probably there is more to it if we take phonology into account. It seems to me that it happens very rarely that a structure Y-x (with -x being the marker) is reinforced pleonastically with a phonologically identical marker: Y-x-x. This seems to be due to avoidance of subsequent identical sequences (there is also a diachronic process doing away with them: haplology, funnily except in the term itself). Indeed, in no example mentioned so far, the new reinforced structure is Y-x-x (with x being the same allomorph).<br>
Against such phonological considerations one might argue that the reinforcing element is usually (has to be ??) more transparent than the earlier exponent of the semantic category (otherwise the reinforced marker is not “crypto-”). However, more transparent exponents also tend to be more productive, and it is more likely that reinforcement is done by a productive strategy than by a non-productive strategy. After all, if the point of reinforcement is more clarity for the listener, it might be strange to use non-transparent markers for that purpose. Another interesting question is: why is it just morphologically marked categories that tend to be reinforced? (This might be relevant for the issue of typological markedness.) Does anybody have an example where a singular personal pronoun is reinforced by a singular marker? (There are certainly many cases of dual pronouns being reinforced by ‘two’ and the like). Note also that reinforcement may entail more complexity as when gender is introduced in pronouns: Spanish nos-otros/nos-otras ‘we’, Lithuanian ju-du ‘you(dual)-two[M]’, ju-dvi ‘you(dual)-two[F]’.<br>
<br>
So here are some claims (I’d love to see counter-examples)<br>
1. Reinforcing morphemes are more transparent and productive than reinforced morphemes.<br>
2. Reinforced and reinforcing morphemes are not the same allomorph.<br>
3. Reinforcing (except purely phonetic reinforcing e.g. by stress) occurs at the periphery (by affixes, adjacent words, not by infixes, ablaut etc.).<br>
4. Typologically unmarked categories are not reinforced. (This does not hold. For instance, Indo-European present -i is a counter example, so no counter-examples for this, please)<br>
4b. Much weaker: singular personal pronouns are not reinforced by singular.<br>
4c. Typologically unmarked categories are reinforced less often than typologically marked categories [possibly a tautology when considered from a pan-chronic perspective]<br>
(Note that 4b can be accounted for by frequency, whereas 4 cannot.)<br>
Hence 4d: Typologically unmarked categories are not reinforced in uses where they are relatively more frequent than their marked counterpart.<br>
5. Short forms are reinforced more frequently than longer forms.<br>
6. Transparently marked forms are less frequently reinforced than opaquely marked forms.<br>
7. Reinforcement is more likely to happen in phrases consisting of one word than in phrases consisting of several words (thus we typologists is less prone to be reinforced than we).<br>
<br>
Lüdtke, Helmut (1980). Kommunikationstheoretische Grundlagen des Sprachwandels. ‘Sprachwandel als universales Phänomen’, 1-19; ‘Auf dem Weg zu einer Theorie des Sprachwandels’, 182-252. Berlin: de Gruyter.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Bernhard W.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Ponrawee Prasertsom <<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a>><br>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 5:01 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I have been looking at a number of Tai languages and found that in some of these languages, plural pronouns can optionally take a plural marker normally used on common nouns. For instance, in Shan (Southwestern Tai), the third person plural pronoun khau can optionally take the plural marker cɯ(nai), viz. khau cɯ(nai)--at least according to Cushing 1871.<br>
<br>
Assuming this analysis is correct (if it's not please kindly inform me), I'm wondering how rare this is for pronouns? A quick lookup revealed that a similar phenomenon called "double plural marking" is found in some languages, but seems to be restricted to common nouns only. Does anyone know of any other instances like this for pronouns in other languages?<br>
<br>
Sources: Cushing, Josiah Nelson. Grammar of the Shan Language. Rangoon: American Mission Press, 1871.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ponrawee Prasertsom<br>
<br>
Graduate Student<br>
Department of Linguistics<br>
Faculty of Arts, Chulalongkorn University<br>
Bangkok, Thailand<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 22:55:59 +0000<br>
From: Edith A Moravcsik <<a href="mailto:edith@uwm.edu" target="_blank">edith@uwm.edu</a>><br>
To: Bernhard Wälchli <<a href="mailto:bernhard@ling.su.se" target="_blank">bernhard@ling.su.se</a>>, Ponrawee Prasertsom<br>
<<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:MWHPR16MB1823E2AB35D57DCCB64EFF57BB730@MWHPR16MB1823.namprd16.prod.outlook.com" target="_blank">MWHPR16MB1823E2AB35D57DCCB64EFF57BB730@MWHPR16MB1823.namprd16.prod.outlook.com</a>><br>
<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Thank you, Bernhard, for your very enlightening message rich both in data and in insight!<br>
Here are some facts about the accusative forms of Hungarian personal pronouns that pertain to the following three of Bernhard’s hypotheses:<br>
<br>
2. Reinforced and reinforcing morphemes are not the same allomorph.<br>
5. Short forms are reinforced more frequently than longer forms.<br>
6. Transparently marked forms are less frequently reinforced than opaquely marked forms.<br>
Here is the paradigm of the accusatives of Hungarian personal pronouns:<br>
<br>
Sing 1 engem, engem-et<br>
2 téged, téged-et<br>
3 őt, ő-t-et<br>
Plu 1 mink-et<br>
2 titek-et<br>
3 ők-et<br>
<br>
Regarding point 2 (The reinforced and the reinforcing morphemes are not the same allomorph): This does not hold for the singular third person accusative form. The nominal accusative suffix is -t (with a vowel preceding it) and it occurs twice in ő-t-et.<br>
<br>
The same identical reinforcement occurs in demonstratives:<br>
<br>
ez-t, ez-t-et ‘this (accusative)’<br>
az-t, az-t-at ‘that (accusative)’<br>
<br>
The doubly-marked forms both for the third person singular pronoun and the demonstratives are highly colloquial; perhaps also dialectal. Jokingly, sometimes people also usu the triply-marked<br>
ez-t-et-et and az-t-at-at (but I have never heard ő-t-et-et).<br>
<br>
Regarding point 5 (Short forms are reinforced more frequently than longer forms): Both the third person singular pronoun and the demonstratives are short and thus they support this point.<br>
<br>
Regarding point 6 (Transparently marked forms are less frequently reinforced than opaquely marked forms): The singular first and second person pronominal accusatives are non-transparent (they are monomorphemic: engem, téged) and thus the fact that they are reinforced is in line with this point.<br>
<br>
Another relevant fact is that loanwords are sometimes reinforced - presumably because they are non-transparent in the borrowing language. I cannot think of an inflectional example but non-inflectional ones are “pizza pie” and “gelato icecream”.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Edith Moravcsik<br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> On Behalf Of Bernhard Wälchli<br>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 3:33 PM<br>
To: Ponrawee Prasertsom <<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
Bill Croft treats the phenomena in question in his seminal book “Explaining Language Change” (2000: 134) under the heading of “cryptanalysis” (§5.5): “In cryptanalysis, the listener analyses a covert semantic/functional property of a syntactic unit as not grammatically marked, and inserts {obviously it is meant when turning into a speaker again, BW} an overt marker expressing its semantic value.” Some of the examples discussed on this list are given in Bill’s subsection §5.5.3 “Pleonastic double marking / reinforcement”.<br>
I am actually not certain whether this is the only possible interpretation. The overt marker could be inserted because the speaker considers the semantic property not sufficiently marked. I do not think all speakers using reinforcement are unable to analyze the non-reinforced expression (despite frequent claims by purists that using pleonasms is stupid). A more general mechanism that can account for reinforcement - although not the sublte differences in politeness in Turkish - is Lüdtke’s model of quantitative language change. (Croft 2000: 159 discusses it as the “periphrasis-fusion-erosion” cycle.) According to Lüdtke, speech has to be redundant since it occurs in a noisy environment, and this entails in the long run three types of changes for saying the same thing which trigger each other: fewer phonemes (Croft’s term “erosion”), more morphemes (Croft’s “periphrasis”) and fewer morpheme boundaries (Croft’s “fusion”) for conveying the same message. So, aren’t the phenomena under discussion here just instances of this? As in the well-known development of French demonstratives from Latin:<br>
ista N > (ecce)ista N > (c)este N > cette N > cette N(-ci)<br>
hoc > (ecce)hoc > (ç)o > ço > ce > ce(la) > cela > ça<br>
However, probably there is more to it if we take phonology into account. It seems to me that it happens very rarely that a structure Y-x (with -x being the marker) is reinforced pleonastically with a phonologically identical marker: Y-x-x. This seems to be due to avoidance of subsequent identical sequences (there is also a diachronic process doing away with them: haplology, funnily except in the term itself). Indeed, in no example mentioned so far, the new reinforced structure is Y-x-x (with x being the same allomorph).<br>
Against such phonological considerations one might argue that the reinforcing element is usually (has to be ??) more transparent than the earlier exponent of the semantic category (otherwise the reinforced marker is not “crypto-”). However, more transparent exponents also tend to be more productive, and it is more likely that reinforcement is done by a productive strategy than by a non-productive strategy. After all, if the point of reinforcement is more clarity for the listener, it might be strange to use non-transparent markers for that purpose. Another interesting question is: why is it just morphologically marked categories that tend to be reinforced? (This might be relevant for the issue of typological markedness.) Does anybody have an example where a singular personal pronoun is reinforced by a singular marker? (There are certainly many cases of dual pronouns being reinforced by ‘two’ and the like). Note also that reinforcement may entail more complexity as when gender is introduced in pronouns: Spanish nos-otros/nos-otras ‘we’, Lithuanian ju-du ‘you(dual)-two[M]’, ju-dvi ‘you(dual)-two[F]’.<br>
<br>
So here are some claims (I’d love to see counter-examples)<br>
1. Reinforcing morphemes are more transparent and productive than reinforced morphemes.<br>
2. Reinforced and reinforcing morphemes are not the same allomorph.<br>
3. Reinforcing (except purely phonetic reinforcing e.g. by stress) occurs at the periphery (by affixes, adjacent words, not by infixes, ablaut etc.).<br>
4. Typologically unmarked categories are not reinforced. (This does not hold. For instance, Indo-European present -i is a counter example, so no counter-examples for this, please)<br>
4b. Much weaker: singular personal pronouns are not reinforced by singular.<br>
4c. Typologically unmarked categories are reinforced less often than typologically marked categories [possibly a tautology when considered from a pan-chronic perspective]<br>
(Note that 4b can be accounted for by frequency, whereas 4 cannot.)<br>
Hence 4d: Typologically unmarked categories are not reinforced in uses where they are relatively more frequent than their marked counterpart.<br>
5. Short forms are reinforced more frequently than longer forms.<br>
6. Transparently marked forms are less frequently reinforced than opaquely marked forms.<br>
7. Reinforcement is more likely to happen in phrases consisting of one word than in phrases consisting of several words (thus we typologists is less prone to be reinforced than we).<br>
<br>
Lüdtke, Helmut (1980). Kommunikationstheoretische Grundlagen des Sprachwandels. ‘Sprachwandel als universales Phänomen’, 1-19; ‘Auf dem Weg zu einer Theorie des Sprachwandels’, 182-252. Berlin: de Gruyter.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Bernhard W.<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Ponrawee Prasertsom <<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:ponrawee.pra@gmail.com" target="_blank">ponrawee.pra@gmail.com</a>>><br>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 5:01 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Plural markers on (already) plural pronouns<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I have been looking at a number of Tai languages and found that in some of these languages, plural pronouns can optionally take a plural marker normally used on common nouns. For instance, in Shan (Southwestern Tai), the third person plural pronoun khau can optionally take the plural marker cɯ(nai), viz. khau cɯ(nai)--at least according to Cushing 1871.<br>
<br>
Assuming this analysis is correct (if it's not please kindly inform me), I'm wondering how rare this is for pronouns? A quick lookup revealed that a similar phenomenon called "double plural marking" is found in some languages, but seems to be restricted to common nouns only. Does anyone know of any other instances like this for pronouns in other languages?<br>
<br>
Sources: Cushing, Josiah Nelson. Grammar of the Shan Language. Rangoon: American Mission Press, 1871.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Ponrawee Prasertsom<br>
<br>
Graduate Student<br>
Department of Linguistics<br>
Faculty of Arts, Chulalongkorn University<br>
Bangkok, Thailand<br>
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