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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>Mark's "ironic positives" in Tukang Besi would seem to be part
and parcel of a wider phenomenon present in other Austronesian
languages. Here are two other cases that I am familiar with:</p>
<p>1. In (many colloquial varieties of) Indonesian, for <i>tau (</i>'know'),
a specific intonation contour involving low-pitch and lengthening
of the penultimate syllable [a] is a stylistically marked way of
saying 'I don't know'.</p>
<p>2. In Tagalog, for <i>maniwala </i>('believe'), an
accooustically similar intonation contour on the penultimate [a]
can also be understood negatively, as in 'I don't believe (you)'.</p>
<p>These two examples resemble the Tukang Besi in that the
lengthening of the penultimate syllable imposes a negative
interpretation limited to a first person subject — which is a
remarkably quirky sound-meaning correspondence pair. (For
Indonesian I am certain about this latter fact, whereas for
Tagalog it's what I remember as being the most common
interpretation, though I would need confirmation from native
speakers that non-first-person interpretations are indeed
unavailable.)</p>
<p>However, they differ from the Tukang Besi in the following two
respects. First, there would seem to be no significant
interaction with the morphology. And secondly, the phenomenon
seems to be highly restricted lexically. For Indonesian it works
almost exclusively with <i>tau</i> 'know', though our corpus also
contains a couple of examples with the (coincidentally
similar-sounding) <i>mau </i>'want', which assume the meaning 'I
don't want to'. For Tagalog, <i>maniwala </i>'believe' is the
only word I recall this happening to, though again, I would need
confirmation from native speakers on this point.</p>
<p>A final note on the phonology. Indonesian dialects tend to be
penultimate stressed in the east, final stressed in the west.
However, the lengthening of the penultimate syllable in the ironic
positive construction is the same in both eastern and western
dialects — even though, in the western dialects, it "conflicts"
with the normal final accentuation. Instead, it represents a
phenomenon that I have written about elsewhere (for Riau
Indonesian), which I refer to as "focus intonation", which falls
on the penultimate syllable even in otherwise finally-stressed
dialects.<br>
</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/01/2020 08:28, Mark Donohue
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKyRuzTz97av2DmZW5d6TRMo5DJo8L3NvGQGF=NT=N+5C5Wpwg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Dear
all,</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">A
variant of
this, in a
sense the
opposi<font
face="arial,
sans-serif">te, <span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">is found in Tukang Besi (Austronesian, central
Indonesia). We</span> m</font>ight
call an ironic
positive, in
that the verb
is not marked
for negation
in any normal
sense, but the
predicate can
be taken to be
negated.</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>General
non-imperative
verbal clauses
take
agreement, as
in (1) and
(2).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Normal
declarative</div>
<div>(1)
ku-wila-mo</div>
<div>
1SG-go-PF</div>
<div> 'I
went.'</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">(2)
ku-dahani</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
1SG-know</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
'I know.'</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Negation
can be
symmetrical,
with a
preverbal
negator in
this VOS
language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Negative
declarative</div>
<div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">(3)
mbeaka
ku-wila-mo</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
NEG
1SG-go-PF</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
'I didn't
go.'</div>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>(4)
mbeaka
ku-dahani</div>
<div> NEG
1SG-know</div>
<div> 'I
don't know.'</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is
a speech
style, that
establishes
camaraderie
between the
speaker and
the
interlocutor,
in which the
(penultimate)
accented
syllable is
lengthened,
and the verb
is not affixed
for agreement,
with a
non-overt 1SG
subject. (This
prosody is not
found with
other speech
acts.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ironic
positive</div>
<div>
<div>(5) wiíla</div>
<div>
go<!></div>
<div> 'As
if I went!'</div>
<div>
<div> 'I
certainly
didn't go!'</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>(6)
dahaáni</div>
<div>
know<!></div>
<div>
'Like I would
know!'</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div> 'I
don't know
anything!'</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Imperatives
(only possible
with agentive
S or A) are
another speech
act without
agreement, but
without the
prosody found
with the
ironic
positive.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Imperative</div>
<div>
<div>(7) wila!</div>
<div> go</div>
<div>
'Go!'</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>(8) *
dahani!</div>
<div>
know</div>
<div>
'Know!'</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The
ironic
positive is
rarely found
in utterances
longer than a
single word
(the verb),
but every now
and then it
comes up, in
which case the
marker of
ironic
positive is on
the final
foot.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Declarative</div>
<div>(9)
ku-manga te
ndawu
mokaha</div>
<div>
1SG-eat CORE
<font
face="arial,
sans-serif">pumpkin.soup
spicy/salty</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'I ate
spicy pumpkin soup.'</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">Imperative</font></div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(10)
manga te
ndawu
mokaha!</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
eat
CORE pumpkin.soup
spicy/salty</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'Eat the
spicy pumpkin soup!'</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">Ironic
positive</font></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(11)
manga te
ndawu
mokaáha!</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
eat
CORE
pumpkin.soup
spicy/salty<!></font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'Like I
would eat the
spicy pumpkin soup!'</font></div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'I don't
ever eat
spicy pumpkin soup!'</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">Also,
unlike
imperatives
and regular
clauses,
agreement for
P is not
possible with
this set of
speech acts.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">Declarative</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(12)
ku-manga-'e na
ndawu.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
1SG-eat-3
NOM
pumpkin.soup</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'I ate
the pumpkin
soup.'</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(13)
ku-manga-'e.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
1SG-eat-3</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'I ate
it.'</font></div>
</div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">Imperative</font></div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(14)
manga-'e na
ndawu!</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
eat-3
NOM
pumpkin.soup</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'Eat up
the pumpkin
soup!'</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(15)
manga-'e!</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
eat-3</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'Eat it
up!'</font></div>
</div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">Ironic
positive</font></div>
<div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">(16)
* ku-manga-'e
na ndaáwu.</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
1SG-eat-3
NOM
pumpkin.soup<!></font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'Like I
would eat
the pumpkin soup!'</font></div>
<div><font
face="arial,
sans-serif">
'I
wouldn't eat
the pumpkin</font> soup!'</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>(17) *
mangaá-'e.</div>
<div>
eat-3<!></div>
<div>
'Like I would
eat it!'</div>
<div>
'I would never
eat it!'</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Mark
Donohue</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 at 04:16,
Bastian Persohn <<a
href="mailto:persohn.linguistics@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">persohn.linguistics@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<p style="margin:6px
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px">Dear
group members,<br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px">I
am posting the below on behalf of a student of mine. Any
input will be greatly appreciated, be it on similar
conventionalized uses of negation and irony in other
languages of the world, general thoughts, or even
specific remarks regarding isiXhosa (or the larger Nguni
branch of Bantu).<br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px">Best
regards,</p>
<p style="margin:6px
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px">Bastian<br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px
0px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px"><br>
</p>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<p
style="margin-top:6px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:6px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px">I
would like some help with finding resources/getting
more information on ironic negative constructions,
which are a rather frequent device in isiXhosa (Bantu,
South Africa). I’m not sure if they go by any other
name, I found this term in Oosthuysen’s (2016) Grammar
of isiXhosa. He describes it as “The use of a
grammatical negative to convey a predicate with an
emphatic positive connotation”. So, these
constructions read as negative statements but in
actual fact mean the opposite. The prosody is
different which helps in realising that<span
style="display:inline;font-family:inherit"> it’s the
ironic negative. Here are some examples (numbers
indicate noun classes, FV is the default final vowel
morpheme):</span></p>
<div
style="display:inline;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(29,33,41);font-size:14px">
<p style="margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:inherit"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit"><i>A-ka-se-m-hle
lo mntwana</i><br>
NEG-SBJ.NEG.1-still-1-pretty PROX.1 1.child<br>
'This child is so/very beautiful' (lit: 'This child
is no longer beautiful')
</p>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit"><i>A-ni-sa-hlafun-i</i><br>
NEG-SBJ.2PL-still-chew-NEG<br>
'You are chewing so much/so loudly' (lit: 'You are
no longer chewing')<br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit"><i>A-ndi-sa-dinw-anga</i><br>
NEG-SBJ.1SG-still-be(come)_tired-NEG.PFV<br>
'I am so/very tired.' (lit: 'I am not tired
anymore')<br>
</p>
<br>
<i>Be-ndi-nge-minc-e</i>
<div>REC.PST-SBJ.1SG-NEG-tense_up-PFV<br>
</div>
<div>'I was so very tense' (lit: 'I was not tensed
up')<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>A-yi-nints-i imi-buzo ya-m</i></div>
<div>NEG-COP.4-many 4-question 4-POSS.1SG <br>
</div>
<div>'My questions are so many' (lit: 'My questions
are not many')<br>
</div>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit">Any
input in the form of papers, books, tiny excerpt,
noting that it you’ve encountered a similar thing in
another language etc would be of great help.</p>
<p style="margin:6px 0px;font-family:inherit">Thanks!<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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