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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">But in addition to what Alexander mentions there is also a pattern in Russian that corresponds closely to what you can see in the examples from Caddoan. You can say for instance “Mne
protivno” ‘I am disgusted’ and “Mne ėto nravitsja” ‘I like it’, where what corresponds to the English “I” is in the dative. It would not be treated as a subject in traditional descriptions of Russian, however. I think this pattern is quite common in European
languages and maybe elsewhere. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Östen<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Från:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>För </b>Alexander Letuchiy<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 30 januari 2020 16:13<br>
<b>Till:</b> Havas Ferenc <hfz@iif.hu>; lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] non-agentive transitives<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dear Ferenc,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">The second phenomenon is a little bit different from what you requested, but it may be relevant for you from the point of intransitive vs. transitive classification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Russian has a polysemous reflexive marker "-sja" that can denote anticausative, reflexive, reciprocal, etc. The relevant meaning is what can be called 'modal passive'.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">The modal passive meaning is applicable both to transitives and intransitives and is only used when the subject of the base construction does not have full control over the situation:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Intransitive (rabotat' "work"):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Mne ne rabotaet-sja<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">I.DAT NEG work-MOD.PASS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">'I cannot work', 'I am in a non-working state'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Transitive (delat' "do, make"):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">U menja rabota ne delaet-sja<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">at I.GEN work NEG do-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">'I cannot do my work', 'I am in a state that does not allow me to do my work'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">When the base verb is transitive, the base object occupies the subject position, and when the base verb is intransitive, the subject position is empty.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">What is more curious, however, is that the base subject is marked differently with intransitives (DAT "mne") and ttransitives (u 'at' + GEN "menja").<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
Alexander<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Havas Ferenc <<a href="mailto:hfz@iif.hu">hfz@iif.hu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 30, 2020 12:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] non-agentive transitives</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<a name="x__Hlk30867244"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Dear Colleagues,</span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:x__Hlk30867244"></span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">My question is about the differential marking of agentive and non-agentive subjects in transitive sentences. It is well known that in some languages, called active
or agentive, the marking of the subject of intransitive verbs (whether by a case or by agreement) differs depending on whether the subject is agentive or patient-like. As Marianne Mithun puts it: “ln all of these languages one case is used for semantic agents
of most transitive verbs and the single argument of some intransitives while a different case is used for the semantic patients of most transitive verbs and the single argument of other intransitives. The sets of verbs occurring with each case are largely
the same from one language to the next. Most verbs in the first set denote events performed, effected, instigated and controlled by their participants (’jump', 'go', 'catch'). Most verbs in the second set denote state significantly affecting their participants
('be sick', 'be tired', 'be caught’)”. (Language 1991, 67/3, 523)</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%"><a name="x__Hlk30867746"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So much about subjects of intransitive predicates. Less light seems
to have been cast on transitive subjects in the dedicated languages, though the pattern exists. Consider e.g. these Kaddoan sentences (selected from the same paper, 525–528):</span></a><span style="mso-bookmark:x__Hlk30867746"></span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsobodytextindent" style="margin-left:53.35pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="HU"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">ci-hahyúnčah</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 'I'm going to go home.’</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsobodytextindent" style="margin-left:53.35pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="HU"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">ku-táyʡayah</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 'I'm tired, disgusted, fed up.'</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsolistparagraph" style="margin-left:53.35pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(3)</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
</span><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">ci-kíʡčah</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> 'I'm going to kill him.'</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsobodytextindent" style="margin-left:53.35pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="HU"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">kú-ʡnutah</span></i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> ’I like it.’</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsobodytextindent" style="margin-left:53.35pt;text-align:justify;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(1) and (2) show that agentive and non-agentive subjects of intransitive sentences have distinct verbal prefixes:
<i>ci-</i> versus <i>ku-.</i> (3) and (4) in turn illustrate the differential marking of agentive and non-agentive subjects in transitive sentences with the very same prefixes as in intransitive sentences.</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">So my questions are</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">a) WHICH SUBJECTS?<br>
Which subjects are non-agentively marked in transitive sentences? I would expect them to be passive experiencers (of verbs like ’see’, ’hear’ as opposed to ‘look at’, ‘listen to’), recipients (’get’, ’inherit’), possessors (’have’), undergoers of unintentional
mental processes (’remember’, ’forget’), emotions (’like’, ’dislike’, ’hate’).<br>
<br>
b) UNIFORM MARKING?<br>
If a language has splits in both transitive and intransitive sentences, are the agentive and non-agentive markers of the same form in the two types of sentences?</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%;text-autospace:none">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">At the end of the day, the central issue is whether the agentive – non-agentive split does or does not work the same way in intransitive and transitive sentences.
If it did, the mere “split intransivity” concept of agentive languages would be worth reconsidering.</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="line-height:115%;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Thank you for your assistance.<br>
<br>
Ferenc Havas</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="line-height:115%;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Professor Emeritus of Linguistics</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt;line-height:115%"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">ELTE University, Budapest</span><span lang="HU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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