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<p>Dear David,<br>
</p>
<p>Shouldn't "descriptive" be rather referred to as "philological"
or "pre-theoretical" in that parlance? :-) It seems that these two
words also belong into this thread. <br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Ilja<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 12.02.2020 um 11:32 schrieb David
Gil:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:ea1225d2-40aa-05b7-a7d9-df9a189f896e@shh.mpg.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>There is also the use of "theoretical" as a would-be antonym to
"descriptive" — with the latter often preceded by words such as
"just" or "merely", in order to reinforce the assumption that
being "theoretical" is somehow a higher or more worthy endeavor
than being "descriptive". Since it is clearly impossible to
describe any aspect of language without adopting some kind of
theory (e.g. with regard to such basic stuff as what constitutes
a segment when you're transcribing a text), the presupposition
that theory stands in opposition to description is both
confusing, as suggested by Martin, but also pernicious — the
latter because it expresses a totalitarian attitude whereby if
you're not adopting the "right" theory, you're not adopting any
theory whatsoever.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/02/2020 12:38, Eitan Grossman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAA00bN=XgxXfSYS_y32kru=+ajWxVOzWgMzgEWnaag0qAfNqkg@mail.gmail.com">
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charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Hi all,
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div dir="auto">In oral comments and reviews, I encounter
two main uses of "theory" and "theoretical." One is simply
an autonym of generative linguists, as in "John only hangs
out with theoretical linguists" or "Mary does great
fieldwork but we want to hire a theoretician."</div>
<div dir="auto">You might also encounter something along the
lines of "This abstract makes some very interesting
observations but does not reference the theoretical
literature, and it is unclear how it relates to theory." </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The other use is something like "having a
point (beyond describing facts)" or "referencing general
linguistic literature." </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But in my experience, the first is by far
the most common.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Eitan</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">בתאריך יום ג׳, 11 בפבר׳
2020, 12:16, מאת paolo Ramat <<a
href="mailto:paolo.ramat@unipv.it" moz-do-not-send="true">paolo.ramat@unipv.it</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi everyone,
<div>Martin H. has written that <<there is
confusion also about ]...] the relation between
"typology" and "theory">>. I fully agree. But
Martin says further that <<the term "theory" can
be used as a count noun , or as a mass noun ("linguistic
theory", "grammatical theory">>. This sounds
rather strange: I had always thought that mass nouns are
nouns such as 'sugar', 'blood', 'sand' etc. Can we
consider abstract nouns like 'philosophy','theology' or
even 'democracy' as mass nouns? Let alone by adding an
adjective as in "linguistic/grammatic theory". This is
not the habitual use of the term and sounds confusing. </div>
<div>Paolo</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">prof. dr. Paolo Ramat
<div>
<div> Università di Pavia (retired)</div>
<div>Istituto Universitario Studi
Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div>
<div>Accademia dei Lincei, Socio
corrispondente<br>
<div>'Academia Europaea'</div>
<div>'Societas Linguistica
Europaea', Honorary Member</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100
Pavia</div>
<div>##39 0382 27027</div>
<div>347 044 98 44</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno mar 11 feb
2020 alle ore 10:47 Haspelmath, Martin <<a
href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>>
ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I would talk about "confusion", not about
"abuse", because there are many different kinds of
linguistic theories. Moreover, the term "theory" can
be used as a count noun (as in the last sentence),
or as a mass noun ("linguistic theory", "grammatical
theory"). Linguists rarely reflect on kinds of
theories, or on kinds of senses of the word
"theory", and the papers that Hartmut mentioned have
not become well-known. So there is a lot of
confusion.<br>
<br>
In my 2010 paper on "Framework-free grammatical
theory" (<a href="https://zenodo.org/record/814947"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://zenodo.org/record/814947</a>),
I distinguished four senses of "theory".<br>
<br>
But there is confusion also about the relation
between "typology" and "theory": Quite a few people
have contrasted them as if they were different ways
of doing linguistics, or different parts of
research, e.g.<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">Hengeveld, Kees. 1992. <em>Non-verbal
predication: Theory, typology, diachrony</em>.
Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.<br>
Polinsky, Maria & Robert Kluender. 2007.
Linguistic typology and theory construction:
Common challenges ahead. <em>Linguistic Typology</em>
11(1). 273–283.<br>
Van Langendonck, Willy. 2008. <em>Theory and
typology of proper names</em>. Berlin: De
Gruyter Mouton.</font><br>
<br>
But on the other hand, it is clear that
"atheoretical typology" is impossible, so this usage
is confusing. See this recent blogpost, which
proposes an alternative: <a
href="https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1915"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1915</a><br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11.02.20 10:18, Hartmut Haberland wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Jün-Tin Wang 1973. ”On the
representation of generative grammars as
first-order theories.” In: Radu J. Bogdan and
Ilkka Niinilouto eds. <i>Logic,</i> <i>Language
and Probability</i>. Dordrecht: Reidel,
302-316</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Hans-Heinrich Lieb 1974.
"Grammars as theories: The case for axiomatic
grammar (Part I)". <i>Theoretical Linguistics</i>
1: 39-115.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US">Hans-Heinrich Lieb 1976.
"Grammars as theories: The case for axiomatic
grammar (Part II)". </span><i><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="DE-AT">Theoretical Linguistics</span></i><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="DE-AT"> 3: 1-98.</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="DE-AT"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"
lang="DE-AT"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Fra:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Hartmut Haberland
<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><hartmut@ruc.dk></a>
<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 11. februar 2020 09:33<br>
<b>Til:</b> TALLMAN Adam <a
href="mailto:Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr></a><br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] The (ab)use of
the term "theory" in (generative)
linguistics</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hans-Heinrich
Lieb has written extensively about this in
the <span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">7</span>0s,
also Jün-tin Wang. </span>Hartmut </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
Den 11. feb. 2020 kl. 07.12 skrev TALLMAN Adam
<<a href="mailto:Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr</a>>:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Hello
all, </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Does
anyone have any sources that discuss
the abuse of the term "theory" in
generative linguistics (or in
linguistics generally)? I figure that
a paper like this must exist given the
deeply insightful comments that I have
received by some reviewers.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Adam</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Adam
James Ross Tallman (PhD, UT
Austin)</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">ELDP-SOAS
-- Postdoctorant<br>
CNRS -- Dynamique Du Langage
(UMR 5596)<br>
Bureau 207, 14 av. Berthelot,
Lyon (07)</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Numero
celular en bolivia:
+59163116867</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;color:black"></span></p>
</div>
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</div>
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<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
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&
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Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig </pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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