<html><DIV>Dear Paolo,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes; this is just like saying `Many waters cannot quench love'. As i point out to the students in my course on English syntax, in English the distinction between `count nouns' and `mass nouns' is fundamental -- but what are normally mass nouns can be used/treated as count nouns in exceptional cases.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV>Steven</DIV>
<DIV><br>
-----Original message-----<br>
<B>From:</B>paolo Ramat<paolo.ramat@unipv.it><br>
<B>To:</B>fcosw5<fcosw5@scu.edu.tw><br>
<B>Cc:</B>Lingtyp<lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<B>Date: </B>Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:29:43<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: count nouns & mass nouns<br>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Steven,
<DIV>with reference to your criteria (1) and (3): consider a sentence like <I>many /*much philosophies have as their starting point different Christian theologies</I> and Wittgenstein had different philosophies at different moments of his life.
<DIV><br>
</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>P.Rt.</DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>prof. dr. Paolo Ramat
<DIV>
<DIV> Università di Pavia (retired)</DIV>
<DIV>Istituto Universitario Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</DIV>
<DIV>Accademia dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>
<DIV>'Academia Europaea'</DIV>
<DIV>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</DIV>
<DIV>##39 0382 27027</DIV>
<DIV>347 044 98 44</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><br>
</DIV></DIV></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr class=gmail_attr>Il giorno gio 13 feb 2020 alle ore 04:58 fcosw5 <<A href="mailto:fcosw5@scu.edu.tw">fcosw5@scu.edu.tw</A>> ha scritto:<br>
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<DIV>Maybe it's just that I'm more of a syntactician/grammarian than a semanticist, but for me the main distinction between `count nouns' and 'mass nouns' in English is that mass nouns (1) rarely occur in the plural (2) can dispense with articles in general (3) take 'much' rather than 'many' as a modifier. By these criteria, I have no trouble regarding 'philosophy', 'theology', or 'democracy' as 'mass nouns'.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And, of course, they can be modified: 'Platonic philosophy', 'Aristotelian philosophy', 'Christian theology', 'Jewish theology', 'Taoist theology', 'Jeffersonian democracy', 'Churchillian democracy'.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV>Steven Schaufele</DIV>
<DIV><br>
-----Original message-----<br>
<B>From:</B>paolo Ramat<<A href="mailto:paolo.ramat@unipv.it" target=_blank>paolo.ramat@unipv.it</A>><br>
<B>To:</B>Haspelmath, Martin<<A href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target=_blank>haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</A>><br>
<B>Cc:</B><A href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target=_blank>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</A><<A href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target=_blank>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</A>><br>
<B>Date: </B>Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:16:09<br>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [Lingtyp] The (ab)use of the term "theory" in (generative)linguistics<br>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Hi everyone,
<DIV>Martin H. has written that <<there is confusion also about ]...] the relation between "typology" and "theory">>. I fully agree. But Martin says further that <<the term "theory" can be used as a count noun , or as a mass noun ("linguistic theory", "grammatical theory">>. This sounds rather strange: I had always thought that mass nouns are nouns such as 'sugar', 'blood', 'sand' etc. Can we consider abstract nouns like 'philosophy','theology' or even 'democracy' as mass nouns? Let alone by adding an adjective as in "linguistic/grammatic theory". This is not the habitual use of the term and sounds confusing. </DIV>
<DIV>Paolo</DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>
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<DIV dir=ltr>prof. dr. Paolo Ramat
<DIV>
<DIV> Università di Pavia (retired)</DIV>
<DIV>Istituto Universitario Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</DIV>
<DIV>Accademia dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>
<DIV>'Academia Europaea'</DIV>
<DIV>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</DIV>
<DIV>##39 0382 27027</DIV>
<DIV>347 044 98 44</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><br>
</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV dir=ltr class=gmail_attr>Il giorno mar 11 feb 2020 alle ore 10:47 Haspelmath, Martin <<A href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target=_blank>haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</A>> ha scritto:<br>
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<DIV>I would talk about "confusion", not about "abuse", because there are many different kinds of linguistic theories. Moreover, the term "theory" can be used as a count noun (as in the last sentence), or as a mass noun ("linguistic theory", "grammatical theory"). Linguists rarely reflect on kinds of theories, or on kinds of senses of the word "theory", and the papers that Hartmut mentioned have not become well-known. So there is a lot of confusion.<br>
<br>
In my 2010 paper on "Framework-free grammatical theory" (<A href="https://zenodo.org/record/814947" target=_blank>https://zenodo.org/record/814947</A>), I distinguished four senses of "theory".<br>
<br>
But there is confusion also about the relation between "typology" and "theory": Quite a few people have contrasted them as if they were different ways of doing linguistics, or different parts of research, e.g.<br>
<br>
<FONT size=-1>Hengeveld, Kees. 1992. <EM>Non-verbal predication: Theory, typology, diachrony</EM>. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter.<br>
Polinsky, Maria & Robert Kluender. 2007. Linguistic typology and theory construction: Common challenges ahead. <EM>Linguistic Typology</EM> 11(1). 273–283.<br>
Van Langendonck, Willy. 2008. <EM>Theory and typology of proper names</EM>. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.</FONT><br>
<br>
But on the other hand, it is clear that "atheoretical typology" is impossible, so this usage is confusing. See this recent blogpost, which proposes an alternative: <A href="https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1915" target=_blank>https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1915</A><br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11.02.20 10:18, Hartmut Haberland wrote:<br>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=EN-US>Jün-Tin Wang 1973. ”On the representation of generative grammars as first-order theories.” In: Radu J. Bogdan and Ilkka Niinilouto eds. <I>Logic,</I> <I>Language and Probability</I>. Dordrecht: Reidel, 302-316<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=EN-US>Hans-Heinrich Lieb 1974. "Grammars as theories: The case for axiomatic grammar (Part I)". <I>Theoretical Linguistics</I> 1: 39-115.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=EN-US>Hans-Heinrich Lieb 1976. "Grammars as theories: The case for axiomatic grammar (Part II)". </SPAN><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=DE-AT>Theoretical Linguistics</SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=DE-AT> 3: 1-98.</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=EN-US><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=DE-AT><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt" lang=DE-AT><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Fra:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> Hartmut Haberland <A href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target=_blank><hartmut@ruc.dk></A> <br>
<B>Sendt:</B> 11. februar 2020 09:33<br>
<B>Til:</B> TALLMAN Adam <A href="mailto:Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr" target=_blank><Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr></A><br>
<B>Emne:</B> Re: [Lingtyp] The (ab)use of the term "theory" in (generative) linguistics<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U> <U></U></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Hans-Heinrich Lieb has written extensively about this in the <SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">7</SPAN>0s, also Jün-tin Wang. </SPAN>Hartmut <U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
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Den 11. feb. 2020 kl. 07.12 skrev TALLMAN Adam <<A href="mailto:Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr" target=_blank>Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr</A>>:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black">Hello all, <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black"><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black">Does anyone have any sources that discuss the abuse of the term "theory" in generative linguistics (or in linguistics generally)? I figure that a paper like this must exist given the deeply insightful comments that I have received by some reviewers.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black"><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black">best,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black"><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black">Adam<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black"><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U> <U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Adam James Ross Tallman (PhD, UT Austin)</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,sans-serif; BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ELDP-SOAS -- Postdoctorant<br>
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<PRE cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<A href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target=_blank>haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</A>)
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