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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>It seems there's a (welcome) consensus that we need to include
non-Latin scripts in our citations. But Liu Danqing's latest post
reminds me that there is a different but related issue pertaining
not to the script but rather to the "grammar" of the name, even
when it's in Latin script. This problem is particularly acute in
(though certainly not limited to) names in Malay/Indonesian, where
even within Indonesia, people of different ethnicities have names
associated with different structures. For example, a name such as
Soenjono Dardjowidjojo (a prominent Indonesian linguist) is often
treated as though Dardjowidjojo were his surname and Soenjono his
first name, and therefore alphabetized under "D" and cited as,
e.g. "Dardjowidjojo (1965)", whereas according to local
conventions, Soenjono is his most important name, and he should
actually be alphabetized under "S" and cited as, e.g. "Soenjono
(1965)". But other Indonesians have different name structures,
and some structure their names in the western way, namely first
name plus surname. When referring to Indonesian authors, I find
it very challenging to refer to each author in the correct way,
and probably end up making quite a few mistakes in doing so.
(Sorry: I don't have an easy solution to offer, I just wanted to
draw attention to the problem, which, as I said above, is not
specific to Malay/Indonesian.)</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 19:30, LIU Danqing wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1353386041.1063917.1585654205745@mail.yahoo.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="ydp691a454dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:
lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Dear Walter and all:</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Walter's comment about the citation of Chinese
author names. Let me mention some figures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> In China, where we have the
population of 1.4 billion, some surnames are extremely
frequent.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Of each of the top three
surnames, Zhang (for Taiwan spelling: Chang, and Hong Kong
Cantonese spelling: Cheung), Wang (Cantonese: Wong), and Li
(Hong Kong: Lee), we have around 100 million people. My
Surname Liu is the fourth biggest one, with a <span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console,
sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">population </span></span>around
60 million . Even within linguistic field, we have many many
Zhangs, Wangs and Lis.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> So, Chinese usually
identifies a person by his/her full name, especially in
academic citation. The information such as Li (1998) or Wang
(2008) or Zhang, J. 2005, Liu, T. 2016 is much less
informative than we need. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> In addition, Chinese is a
tone language. When we use Latin Script, the tone distinction
between names is neutralized. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">So I prefer to keep longer
forms for Chinese names in citation.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted_5782009945"
class="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div> On Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 4:59:12 PM GMT+8, Bisang,
Prof. Dr. Walter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wbisang@uni-mainz.de"><wbisang@uni-mainz.de></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"
id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divtagdefaultwrapper"
style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif,;">
<p>Dear Ian,</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>taking up Christian Lehmann's mail, I first want to
say that I fully support your view.</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>Publishers may intend to save space but the
consequences of that are that it may be hard to find
and read the original paper. In many cases, these
regulations even affect the author’s identification
(and her/his rights). This can well be the case with
Chinese authors. Given the frequency of some
surnames (e.g. Zhang), one also needs to see the
first name in Chinese characters. Citations of the
type of "Zhang, J.", as they are common practice in
many scientific journals, are not very helpful.
<span>Of course, the real pecialists may easily be
able to identify an other author even if her/his
name is only given in transcription, but this
cannot be taken for granted as soon as a paper is
written for a somewhat wider audience.
</span>Other languages with Non-Latin script come
with other problems but the overall problem is
rarely discussed. Let me just point out one
additional problem, which is the absence of a
standardized transcription or the existence of
several competing systems of transcription.</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>As for your suggestion of how to cite Chinese
publications, I'd suggest to translate the title
into English as well (for those who cannot read and
speak the language).
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Walter (Bisang)<br clear="none">
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt0550918069"
id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt83560">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<hr tabindex="-1"
style="display:inline-block;width:98%;">
<div dir="ltr"
id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divRplyFwdMsg"><font
style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a>
on behalf of Daniel Ross
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com"><djross3@gmail.com></a><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:17 AM<br
clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Joo, Ian<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Why cite
non-Latin-script literature ONLY in Latin
script?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thanks for this question. I'd love to
join in the discussion by saying that from
my perspective, this practice is frustrating
and harmful for my productivity.
Specifically, I often work with references
not written in a language that I know well.
And it can take me a very long time to
reconstruct the original script
representation of the for example romanized
Chinese to guess what the actual characters
were in order to locate the cited article.
At that point I can slowly work through it
using a mix of dictionaries, Google
Translate, etc. If from the perspective of a
speaker of these languages this is also a
problem, then I would strongly suggest the
practice be ended immediately.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Of course there is a historical
explanation: it was once very hard to type
out the scripts of non-Roman languages. But
now that we've had unicode for a long time
actually, that's no longer a relevant
reason. If it were, we'd find journals
publishing the titles of articles in
Romanized characters too, or at least
listing them that way through search
engines.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Daniel<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote">
<div
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_attr"
dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10 AM
Joo, Ian <<a shape="rect"
href="mailto:joo@shh.mpg.de"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">joo@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="en-DE">
<div
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail-m_-8811224892623260417WordSection1">
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Dear
all,</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">I
would like to ask a question to
everybody:</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">When
citing literature written in
non-Latin script, why do some
editors require it to be
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="EN-US">cited ONLY in Latin
script?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US">For
example, this is how I would cite a
Chinese book, when writing an
article in English:</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:36pt;"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Xùliàn</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">旭</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">练</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Lǐ</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">李</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">.<i>Láiyǔ
yánjiū</i></span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">倈语</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">硏究</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">.
Zhōngguó xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū
cóngshū</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">中</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">国</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">新</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">发现语</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">言</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">研</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">究</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">丛书</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">.
Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">中央民族大</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">学</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">出版社</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">,
Běijīng</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">北京</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">As
you can see, in both the original
script (Chinese) and Latin script.
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="EN-US">But some editors
require it to be:</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:36pt;"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Xùliàn
Lǐ.
<i>Láiyǔ yánjiū</i>. Zhōngguó xīn
fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū.
Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè,
Běijīng.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">But
why would we not write the original
script and ONLY write in Latin
script?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">The
point of citing literature is to
enable the reader to go find and
consult it themself.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">But
when the author’s name is written as
<i>Xùliàn Lǐ</i>, I have no idea how
that would be written in Chinese,
thus making it more difficult to
find the literature when needed.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">So
what is the logical purpose of
requiring the article to be cited
ONLY in Latin script?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">The
only logical reason I can think of
is that it saves some space – ca.
one line per citation. But is that a
good enough reason to make things
harder for those actually wanting to
find and read the cited work?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">I
would like to hear your opinion on
this matter.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">(I’m
asking this question on Lingtyp
mailing list, because our subfield
makes it necessary for some of us to
make extensive use of
non-Latin-script literature.)</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">From
Daejeon,</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Ian</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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