<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>The problem with such names is that authors have personal opinions about their names. A well-known historian is called Nicola Di Cosmo and, if I remember correctly, he insists on being quoted as Di Cosmo instead of Cosmo. Other authors prefer leaving out the "nobiliary particle". So in this case there might not be a simple solution but the opinion of the individual authors should be taken into account. I guess in this case one has to check how the author quotes him/herself.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Another problem is the ordering of surname and given name. A seemingly well-known saying has it that Asian countries and Western countries use the reversed order. However, there are also cases in Europe that have the surname in first position (e.g., in my hometown). If one treats Asian names in a special way and leaves out the comma, this should, at least theoretically, also be the case in such European names. A better solution might be to treat all names the same way and add a comma irrespective of the original ordering in the author's name. In case an author has no surname/given name distinction, it might be best to use the single name as if it were a surname (as Brill's linguistic bibliography does for instance).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Andi</div>
<div>
<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid #C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 31. März 2020 um 15:02 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b> "LIU Danqing" <liudanq@yahoo.com><br/>
<b>An:</b> "lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org>, "Haspelmath, Martin" <haspelmath@shh.mpg.de><br/>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Why cite non-Latin-script literature ONLY in Latin script?</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div class="ydpd4ae2648yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family: lucida console , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">
<div> </div>
<div>Dear all:<br/>
</div>
<div>One thing that seems confusing to us with European names is how to sort surnames with articles and prepositions like <span><span style="color: rgb(0,0,0);font-family: lucida console , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">le, la, </span></span>de, da, den，van, von in Romance and Germanic languages.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Danqing</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyahoo_quoted" id="ydpa4d1540fyahoo_quoted_6127231036">
<div style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue" , Helvetica , Arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;color: rgb(38,40,42);">
<div>On Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 8:52:20 PM GMT+8, Haspelmath, Martin <haspelmath@shh.mpg.de> wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557">
<div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-cite-prefix">The issue mentioned by David and Randy also arises with names from India. The well-known Tamil expert E. Annamalai once told me that he had just a single name, "Annamalai", and that he added the "abbreviated given name E." merely in order to fit into the expectations of foreigners. (His father's name began with "E", so this seemed the least arbitrary choice.)<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
And in Europe, a frequent issue is how to find Dutch names (because in the Dutch tradition, the "surname proclitics" do not count for alphabetic sorting, and they vary in spelling depending on the context).<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
So it may not be an exaggeration to say that each naming tradition has its own categories, just as each language hs its own categories.<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
To be sure, we want to compare names across naming traditions, so we need comparative concepts. In the <a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistics/past-research-resources/resources/generic-style-rules.html" target="_blank"> Generic Style Rules</a>, the proposal is to have an obligatory surname field, and an optional given name field – so the Indian/Tibetan names are not anomalous (because the given name is optional), and neither would the Dutch names (because the surnames would be treated uniformly). It seems that this would be largely compatible with the practices of most publishers.<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
It may be possible to have even more complex systems (along the lines suggested by Christian), but I think the beauty of the Generic Style Rules is that they are only 14 pages long. They specify a number of fixed rules, but otherwise leave a lot of freedom. (In contrast, the APA manual is over 200 pages long, costs €35, and contains some ancient rules that are culturally insensitive, so put it mildly.)<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
Best,<br clear="none"/>
Martin
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqt0374952782" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqtfd75583"><br clear="none"/>
On 31.03.20 14:14, David Gil wrote:</div>
</div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqt0374952782" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqtfd86691"> </div>
<blockquote>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqt0374952782" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqtfd74359">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>It seems there's a (welcome) consensus that we need to include non-Latin scripts in our citations. But Liu Danqing's latest post reminds me that there is a different but related issue pertaining not to the script but rather to the "grammar" of the name, even when it's in Latin script. This problem is particularly acute in (though certainly not limited to) names in Malay/Indonesian, where even within Indonesia, people of different ethnicities have names associated with different structures. For example, a name such as Soenjono Dardjowidjojo (a prominent Indonesian linguist) is often treated as though Dardjowidjojo were his surname and Soenjono his first name, and therefore alphabetized under "D" and cited as, e.g. "Dardjowidjojo (1965)", whereas according to local conventions, Soenjono is his most important name, and he should actually be alphabetized under "S" and cited as, e.g. "Soenjono (1965)". But other Indonesians have different name structures, and some structure their names in the western way, namely first name plus surname. When referring to Indonesian authors, I find it very challenging to refer to each author in the correct way, and probably end up making quite a few mistakes in doing so. (Sorry: I don't have an easy solution to offer, I just wanted to draw attention to the problem, which, as I said above, is not specific to Malay/Indonesian.)</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p> </p>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 19:30, LIU Danqing wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp691a454dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family: lucida console , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">
<div>Dear Walter and all:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I agree with Walter's comment about the citation of Chinese author names. Let me mention some figures.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> In China, where we have the population of 1.4 billion, some surnames are extremely frequent.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> Of each of the top three surnames, Zhang (for Taiwan spelling: Chang, and Hong Kong Cantonese spelling: Cheung), Wang (Cantonese: Wong), and Li (Hong Kong: Lee), we have around 100 million people. My Surname Liu is the fourth biggest one, with a <span><span style="color: rgb(0,0,0);font-family: lucida console , sans-serif;font-size: 16.0px;">population </span></span>around 60 million . Even within linguistic field, we have many many Zhangs, Wangs and Lis.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> So, Chinese usually identifies a person by his/her full name, especially in academic citation. The information such as Li (1998) or Wang (2008) or Zhang, J. 2005, Liu, T. 2016 is much less informative than we need. </div>
<div> </div>
<div> In addition, Chinese is a tone language. When we use Latin Script, the tone distinction between names is neutralized. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>So I prefer to keep longer forms for Chinese names in citation.<br clear="none"/>
<br clear="none"/>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted_5782009945">
<div style="font-family: "Helvetica Neue" , Helvetica , Arial , sans-serif;font-size: 13.0px;color: rgb(38,40,42);">
<div>On Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 4:59:12 PM GMT+8, Bisang, Prof. Dr. Walter <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wbisang@uni-mainz.de" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:wbisang@uni-mainz.de'; return false;" target="_blank"> <wbisang@uni-mainz.de></a> wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583">
<div>
<div id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size: 12.0pt;color: rgb(0,0,0);">
<p>Dear Ian,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>taking up Christian Lehmann's mail, I first want to say that I fully support your view.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Publishers may intend to save space but the consequences of that are that it may be hard to find and read the original paper. In many cases, these regulations even affect the author’s identification (and her/his rights). This can well be the case with Chinese authors. Given the frequency of some surnames (e.g. Zhang), one also needs to see the first name in Chinese characters. Citations of the type of "Zhang, J.", as they are common practice in many scientific journals, are not very helpful. <span>Of course, the real pecialists may easily be able to identify an other author even if her/his name is only given in transcription, but this cannot be taken for granted as soon as a paper is written for a somewhat wider audience. </span>Other languages with Non-Latin script come with other problems but the overall problem is rarely discussed. Let me just point out one additional problem, which is the absence of a standardized transcription or the existence of several competing systems of transcription.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for your suggestion of how to cite Chinese publications, I'd suggest to translate the title into English as well (for those who cannot read and speak the language).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Walter (Bisang)</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt0550918069" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt83560">
<div style="color: rgb(0,0,0);">
<hr style="display: inline-block;width: 98.0%;"/>
<div id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11.0pt;"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank"> <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of Daniel Ross <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:djross3@gmail.com'; return false;" target="_blank"> <djross3@gmail.com></a><br clear="none"/>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:17 AM<br clear="none"/>
<b>To:</b> Joo, Ian<br clear="none"/>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank"> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Why cite non-Latin-script literature ONLY in Latin script?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Thanks for this question. I'd love to join in the discussion by saying that from my perspective, this practice is frustrating and harmful for my productivity. Specifically, I often work with references not written in a language that I know well. And it can take me a very long time to reconstruct the original script representation of the for example romanized Chinese to guess what the actual characters were in order to locate the cited article. At that point I can slowly work through it using a mix of dictionaries, Google Translate, etc. If from the perspective of a speaker of these languages this is also a problem, then I would strongly suggest the practice be ended immediately.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Of course there is a historical explanation: it was once very hard to type out the scripts of non-Roman languages. But now that we've had unicode for a long time actually, that's no longer a relevant reason. If it were, we'd find journals publishing the titles of articles in Romanized characters too, or at least listing them that way through search engines.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Daniel</div>
</div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote">
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10 AM Joo, Ian <<a href="mailto:joo@shh.mpg.de" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:joo@shh.mpg.de'; return false;" target="_blank">joo@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote" style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.8ex;border-left: 1.0px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left: 1.0ex;">
<div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail-m_-8811224892623260417WordSection1">
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Dear all,</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">I would like to ask a question to everybody:</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">When citing literature written in non-Latin script, why do some editors require it to be </span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">cited ONLY in Latin script?</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">For example, this is how I would cite a Chinese book, when writing an article in English:</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Xùliàn</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">旭</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">练</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Lǐ</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">李</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">.<i>Láiyǔ yánjiū</i></span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">倈语</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">硏究</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">. Zhōngguó xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">中</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">国</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">新</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">发现语</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">言</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">研</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">究</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">丛书</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">. Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">中央民族大</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">学</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">出版社</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">, Běijīng</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">北京</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">As you can see, in both the original script (Chinese) and Latin script. </span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">But some editors require it to be:</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36.0pt;"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Xùliàn Lǐ. <i>Láiyǔ yánjiū</i>. Zhōngguó xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū. Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè, Běijīng.</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">But why would we not write the original script and ONLY write in Latin script?</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">The point of citing literature is to enable the reader to go find and consult it themself.</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">But when the author’s name is written as <i>Xùliàn Lǐ</i>, I have no idea how that would be written in Chinese, thus making it more difficult to find the literature when needed.</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">So what is the logical purpose of requiring the article to be cited ONLY in Latin script?</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">The only logical reason I can think of is that it saves some space – ca. one line per citation. But is that a good enough reason to make things harder for those actually wanting to find and read the cited work?</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">I would like to hear your opinion on this matter.</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">(I’m asking this question on Lingtyp mailing list, because our subfield makes it necessary for some of us to make extensive use of non-Latin-script literature.)</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">From Daejeon,</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;">Ian</span></p>
<p class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br clear="none"/>
Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"/>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"/>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yqt0550918069" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557ydp215220d4yqt50177">_______________________________________________<br clear="none"/>
Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"/>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"/>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<fieldset class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557mimeAttachmentHeader"> </fieldset>
<pre class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-signature">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de'; return false;" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
<fieldset class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557mimeAttachmentHeader"> </fieldset>
</div>
<pre class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-quote-pre"> </pre>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqt0374952782" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqtfd35655">_______________________________________________ Lingtyp mailing list <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-signature">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de'; return false;" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig </pre>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqt0374952782" id="ydpa4d1540fyiv1764100557yqtfd03898"> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="ydpa4d1540fyqt0374952782" id="ydpa4d1540fyqtfd59326">_______________________________________________<br clear="none"/>
Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none"/>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" onclick="parent.window.location.href='mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org'; return false;" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none"/>
<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________ Lingtyp mailing list Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></body></html>