<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">I’m in favor of using Chinese characters and pinyin (without tone marking) for citing Chinese sources. To me the tone marking is superfluous as you can find the source by matching the pinyin and the characters. Besides, if you already know how to read Chinese you don’t need the pinyin anyways. So in some ways the pinyin is sort of pointless: how and why on earth are you going to look up a Chinese source if you can’t read Chinese in the first place? I’d love to hear reasons for why to mark tone in bibliographical references.<br><br><div dir="ltr"><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">-- <br class="">Best regards,<br class="">Jesse </span><div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br class=""></span><div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">École des hautes études en sciences sociales - EHESS</span></div><div class=""><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">My research: <a href="https://ehess.academia.edu/JesseGates" class="">https://ehess.academia.edu/JesseGates</a></span></div></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">Le 31 mars 2020 à 20:52, Haspelmath, Martin <haspelmath@shh.mpg.de> a écrit :<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The issue mentioned by David and Randy also arises with names from India. The well-known Tamil expert E. Annamalai once told me that he had just a single name, "Annamalai", and that he added the "abbreviated given name E." merely
in order to fit into the expectations of foreigners. (His father's name began with "E", so this seemed the least arbitrary choice.)<br>
<br>
And in Europe, a frequent issue is how to find Dutch names (because in the Dutch tradition, the "surname proclitics" do not count for alphabetic sorting, and they vary in spelling depending on the context).<br>
<br>
So it may not be an exaggeration to say that each naming tradition has its own categories, just as each language hs its own categories.<br>
<br>
To be sure, we want to compare names across naming traditions, so we need comparative concepts. In the
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistics/past-research-resources/resources/generic-style-rules.html">
Generic Style Rules</a>, the proposal is to have an obligatory surname field, and an optional given name field – so the Indian/Tibetan names are not anomalous (because the given name is optional), and neither would the Dutch names (because the surnames would
be treated uniformly). It seems that this would be largely compatible with the practices of most publishers.<br>
<br>
It may be possible to have even more complex systems (along the lines suggested by Christian), but I think the beauty of the Generic Style Rules is that they are only 14 pages long. They specify a number of fixed rules, but otherwise leave a lot of freedom.
(In contrast, the APA manual is over 200 pages long, costs €35, and contains some ancient rules that are culturally insensitive, so put it mildly.)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
On 31.03.20 14:14, David Gil wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:74d081ef-b32b-c544-cf3d-a815e8682786@shh.mpg.de">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>It seems there's a (welcome) consensus that we need to include non-Latin scripts in our citations. But Liu Danqing's latest post reminds me that there is a different but related issue pertaining not to the script but rather to the "grammar" of the name,
even when it's in Latin script. This problem is particularly acute in (though certainly not limited to) names in Malay/Indonesian, where even within Indonesia, people of different ethnicities have names associated with different structures. For example,
a name such as Soenjono Dardjowidjojo (a prominent Indonesian linguist) is often treated as though Dardjowidjojo were his surname and Soenjono his first name, and therefore alphabetized under "D" and cited as, e.g. "Dardjowidjojo (1965)", whereas according
to local conventions, Soenjono is his most important name, and he should actually be alphabetized under "S" and cited as, e.g. "Soenjono (1965)". But other Indonesians have different name structures, and some structure their names in the western way, namely
first name plus surname. When referring to Indonesian authors, I find it very challenging to refer to each author in the correct way, and probably end up making quite a few mistakes in doing so. (Sorry: I don't have an easy solution to offer, I just wanted
to draw attention to the problem, which, as I said above, is not specific to Malay/Indonesian.)</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 19:30, LIU Danqing wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1353386041.1063917.1585654205745@mail.yahoo.com">
<div class="ydp691a454dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:
lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Dear Walter and all:</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Walter's comment about the citation of Chinese author names. Let me mention some figures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> In China, where we have the population of 1.4 billion, some surnames are extremely frequent.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Of each of the top three surnames, Zhang (for Taiwan spelling: Chang, and Hong Kong Cantonese spelling: Cheung), Wang (Cantonese: Wong), and Li (Hong Kong: Lee), we have around 100 million people. My Surname Liu is the fourth
biggest one, with a <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida console,
sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">population </span></span>around 60 million . Even within linguistic field, we have many many Zhangs, Wangs and Lis.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> So, Chinese usually identifies a person by his/her full name, especially in academic citation. The information such as Li (1998) or Wang (2008) or Zhang, J. 2005, Liu, T. 2016 is much less informative than we need. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> In addition, Chinese is a tone language. When we use Latin Script, the tone distinction between names is neutralized. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">So I prefer to keep longer forms for Chinese names in citation.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted_5782009945" class="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>On Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 4:59:12 PM GMT+8, Bisang, Prof. Dr. Walter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wbisang@uni-mainz.de" moz-do-not-send="true">
<wbisang@uni-mainz.de></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr" id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,
Helvetica, sans-serif,;">
<p>Dear Ian,</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>taking up Christian Lehmann's mail, I first want to say that I fully support your view.</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>Publishers may intend to save space but the consequences of that are that it may be hard to find and read the original paper. In many cases, these regulations even affect the author’s identification (and her/his rights). This can well be the case with Chinese
authors. Given the frequency of some surnames (e.g. Zhang), one also needs to see the first name in Chinese characters. Citations of the type of "Zhang, J.", as they are common practice in many scientific journals, are not very helpful.
<span>Of course, the real pecialists may easily be able to identify an other author even if her/his name is only given in transcription, but this cannot be taken for granted as soon as a paper is written for a somewhat wider audience.
</span>Other languages with Non-Latin script come with other problems but the overall problem is rarely discussed. Let me just point out one additional problem, which is the absence of a standardized transcription or the existence of several competing systems
of transcription.</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>As for your suggestion of how to cite Chinese publications, I'd suggest to translate the title into English as well (for those who cannot read and speak the language).
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Walter (Bisang)<br clear="none">
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt0550918069" id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt83560">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;width:98%;">
<div dir="ltr" id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divRplyFwdMsg"><font style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of Daniel Ross <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
<djross3@gmail.com></a><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:17 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Joo, Ian<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Why cite non-Latin-script literature ONLY in Latin script?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thanks for this question. I'd love to join in the discussion by saying that from my perspective, this practice is frustrating and harmful for my productivity. Specifically, I often work with references not written in a language that I know well. And it
can take me a very long time to reconstruct the original script representation of the for example romanized Chinese to guess what the actual characters were in order to locate the cited article. At that point I can slowly work through it using a mix of dictionaries,
Google Translate, etc. If from the perspective of a speaker of these languages this is also a problem, then I would strongly suggest the practice be ended immediately.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Of course there is a historical explanation: it was once very hard to type out the scripts of non-Roman languages. But now that we've had unicode for a long time actually, that's no longer a relevant reason. If it were, we'd find journals publishing the
titles of articles in Romanized characters too, or at least listing them that way through search engines.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Daniel<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10 AM Joo, Ian <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:joo@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joo@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="en-DE">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail-m_-8811224892623260417WordSection1">
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Dear all,</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">I would like to ask a question to everybody:</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">When citing literature written in non-Latin script, why do some editors require it to be
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US">cited ONLY in Latin script?</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US">For example, this is how I would cite a Chinese book, when writing an article in English:</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Xùliàn</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">旭</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">练</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Lǐ</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">李</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">.<i>Láiyǔ
yánjiū</i></span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">倈语</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">硏究</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">. Zhōngguó xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">中</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">国</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">新</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">发现语</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">言</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">研</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">究</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">丛书</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">.
Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">中央民族大</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">学</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">出版社</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">, Běijīng</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN">北京</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">As you can see, in both the original script (Chinese) and Latin script.
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US">But some editors require it to be:</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Xùliàn Lǐ.
<i>Láiyǔ yánjiū</i>. Zhōngguó xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū. Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè, Běijīng.</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">But why would we not write the original script and ONLY write in Latin script?</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">The point of citing literature is to enable the reader to go find and consult it themself.</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">But when the author’s name is written as
<i>Xùliàn Lǐ</i>, I have no idea how that would be written in Chinese, thus making it more difficult to find the literature when needed.</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">So what is the logical purpose of requiring the article to be cited ONLY in Latin script?</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">The only logical reason I can think of is that it saves some space – ca. one line per citation. But is that a good enough reason to make things harder for those actually
wanting to find and read the cited work?</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">I would like to hear your opinion on this matter.</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">(I’m asking this question on Lingtyp mailing list, because our subfield makes it necessary for some of us to make extensive use of non-Latin-script literature.)</span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">From Daejeon,</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE">Ian</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br clear="none">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="ydp215220d4yqt0550918069" id="ydp215220d4yqt50177">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">
Lingtyp mailing list<br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none">
<a shape="rect" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig </pre>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Lingtyp mailing list</span><br><span>Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span><br><span>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>