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<p>I like Martin's idea of treating this issue as one of comparative
concepts, but I am not sure how to apply this in practice. His
idea, as I understand it, is to identify, across different naming
traditions, a comparative concept that one might, perhaps, refer
to as "main name" (using lower case terms as befitting comparative
concepts). But this doesn't solve the problem of how to map "main
name" onto particular language-specific name categories.
Intuitively, for the Indonesian Soenjono Dardjowidjojo, it would
be Soenjono that is the main name; similarly, for Icelandic and
other similar languages, it would be the first name, not the
patronym that is the main name. But these are just my intuitions,
and I'm not sure how this would generalize to other naming
traditions even within Indonesia, let alone Korean, Arabic, and
many other languages. I guess what we need is an objective
criterion (or set of criteria) that would be applicable across the
world's naming traditions. But we're clearly not there yet.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 20:51, Haspelmath, Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:db54a47c-5a1b-e797-b874-3b8a8f49ad90@shh.mpg.de">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The issue mentioned by David and
Randy also arises with names from India. The well-known Tamil
expert E. Annamalai once told me that he had just a single name,
"Annamalai", and that he added the "abbreviated given name E."
merely in order to fit into the expectations of foreigners. (His
father's name began with "E", so this seemed the least arbitrary
choice.)<br>
<br>
And in Europe, a frequent issue is how to find Dutch names
(because in the Dutch tradition, the "surname proclitics" do not
count for alphabetic sorting, and they vary in spelling
depending on the context).<br>
<br>
So it may not be an exaggeration to say that each naming
tradition has its own categories, just as each language hs its
own categories.<br>
<br>
To be sure, we want to compare names across naming traditions,
so we need comparative concepts. In the
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistics/past-research-resources/resources/generic-style-rules.html">Generic
Style Rules</a>, the proposal is to have an obligatory surname
field, and an optional given name field – so the Indian/Tibetan
names are not anomalous (because the given name is optional),
and neither would the Dutch names (because the surnames would be
treated uniformly). It seems that this would be largely
compatible with the practices of most publishers.<br>
<br>
It may be possible to have even more complex systems (along the
lines suggested by Christian), but I think the beauty of the
Generic Style Rules is that they are only 14 pages long. They
specify a number of fixed rules, but otherwise leave a lot of
freedom. (In contrast, the APA manual is over 200 pages long,
costs €35, and contains some ancient rules that are culturally
insensitive, so put it mildly.)<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
On 31.03.20 14:14, David Gil wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:74d081ef-b32b-c544-cf3d-a815e8682786@shh.mpg.de">
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>It seems there's a (welcome) consensus that we need to
include non-Latin scripts in our citations. But Liu Danqing's
latest post reminds me that there is a different but related
issue pertaining not to the script but rather to the "grammar"
of the name, even when it's in Latin script. This problem is
particularly acute in (though certainly not limited to) names
in Malay/Indonesian, where even within Indonesia, people of
different ethnicities have names associated with different
structures. For example, a name such as Soenjono
Dardjowidjojo (a prominent Indonesian linguist) is often
treated as though Dardjowidjojo were his surname and Soenjono
his first name, and therefore alphabetized under "D" and cited
as, e.g. "Dardjowidjojo (1965)", whereas according to local
conventions, Soenjono is his most important name, and he
should actually be alphabetized under "S" and cited as, e.g.
"Soenjono (1965)". But other Indonesians have different name
structures, and some structure their names in the western way,
namely first name plus surname. When referring to Indonesian
authors, I find it very challenging to refer to each author in
the correct way, and probably end up making quite a few
mistakes in doing so. (Sorry: I don't have an easy solution
to offer, I just wanted to draw attention to the problem,
which, as I said above, is not specific to Malay/Indonesian.)</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 19:30, LIU Danqing
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:1353386041.1063917.1585654205745@mail.yahoo.com">
<div class="ydp691a454dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:
lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Dear Walter and all:</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Walter's comment about the citation of
Chinese author names. Let me mention some figures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> In China, where we have
the population of 1.4 billion, some surnames are extremely
frequent.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> Of each of the top
three surnames, Zhang (for Taiwan spelling: Chang, and
Hong Kong Cantonese spelling: Cheung), Wang (Cantonese:
Wong), and Li (Hong Kong: Lee), we have around 100 million
people. My Surname Liu is the fourth biggest one, with a <span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: lucida
console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">population </span></span>around
60 million . Even within linguistic field, we have many
many Zhangs, Wangs and Lis.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> So, Chinese usually
identifies a person by his/her full name, especially in
academic citation. The information such as Li (1998) or
Wang (2008) or Zhang, J. 2005, Liu, T. 2016 is much less
informative than we need. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> In addition, Chinese is
a tone language. When we use Latin Script, the tone
distinction between names is neutralized. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">So I prefer to keep
longer forms for Chinese names in citation.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted_5782009945"
class="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>On Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 4:59:12 PM GMT+8, Bisang,
Prof. Dr. Walter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:wbisang@uni-mainz.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<wbisang@uni-mainz.de></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"
id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divtagdefaultwrapper"
style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri, Helvetica,
sans-serif,;">
<p>Dear Ian,</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>taking up Christian Lehmann's mail, I first
want to say that I fully support your view.</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>Publishers may intend to save space but the
consequences of that are that it may be hard to
find and read the original paper. In many cases,
these regulations even affect the author’s
identification (and her/his rights). This can
well be the case with Chinese authors. Given the
frequency of some surnames (e.g. Zhang), one
also needs to see the first name in Chinese
characters. Citations of the type of "Zhang,
J.", as they are common practice in many
scientific journals, are not very helpful.
<span>Of course, the real pecialists may easily
be able to identify an other author even if
her/his name is only given in transcription,
but this cannot be taken for granted as soon
as a paper is written for a somewhat wider
audience.
</span>Other languages with Non-Latin script
come with other problems but the overall problem
is rarely discussed. Let me just point out one
additional problem, which is the absence of a
standardized transcription or the existence of
several competing systems of transcription.</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>As for your suggestion of how to cite Chinese
publications, I'd suggest to translate the title
into English as well (for those who cannot read
and speak the language).
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p>All the best,</p>
<p>Walter (Bisang)<br clear="none">
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<p><br clear="none">
</p>
<br clear="none">
<div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt0550918069"
id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt83560">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);">
<hr tabindex="-1"
style="display:inline-block;width:98%;">
<div dir="ltr"
id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divRplyFwdMsg"><font
style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri,
sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of
Daniel Ross <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<djross3@gmail.com></a><br
clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:17
AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Joo, Ian<br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br
clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Why cite
non-Latin-script literature ONLY in Latin
script?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thanks for this question. I'd love to
join in the discussion by saying that
from my perspective, this practice is
frustrating and harmful for my
productivity. Specifically, I often work
with references not written in a
language that I know well. And it can
take me a very long time to reconstruct
the original script representation of
the for example romanized Chinese to
guess what the actual characters were in
order to locate the cited article. At
that point I can slowly work through it
using a mix of dictionaries, Google
Translate, etc. If from the perspective
of a speaker of these languages this is
also a problem, then I would strongly
suggest the practice be ended
immediately.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Of course there is a historical
explanation: it was once very hard to
type out the scripts of non-Roman
languages. But now that we've had
unicode for a long time actually, that's
no longer a relevant reason. If it were,
we'd find journals publishing the titles
of articles in Romanized characters too,
or at least listing them that way
through search engines.</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Daniel<br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote">
<div
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_attr"
dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10
AM Joo, Ian <<a shape="rect"
href="mailto:joo@shh.mpg.de"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">joo@shh.mpg.de</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="en-DE">
<div
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail-m_-8811224892623260417WordSection1">
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">Dear all,</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">I would like to ask
a question to everybody:</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">When citing
literature written in non-Latin
script, why do some editors
require it to be
</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="EN-US">cited ONLY in Latin
script?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="EN-US">For example, this
is how I would cite a Chinese
book, when writing an article in
English:</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:36pt;"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">Xùliàn</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">旭</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">练</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">Lǐ</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">李</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">.<i>Láiyǔ yánjiū</i></span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">倈语</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">硏究</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">. Zhōngguó xīn
fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">中</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">国</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">新</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">发现语</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">言</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">研</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">究</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">丛书</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">. Zhōngyāng mínzú
dàxué chūbǎnshè</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">中央民族大</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">学</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">出版社</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">, Běijīng</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="ZH-CN">北京</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">As you can see, in
both the original script
(Chinese) and Latin script.
</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="EN-US">But some editors
require it to be:</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:36pt;"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">Xùliàn Lǐ.
<i>Láiyǔ yánjiū</i>. Zhōngguó
xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū.
Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè,
Běijīng.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">But why would we
not write the original script
and ONLY write in Latin script?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">The point of citing
literature is to enable the
reader to go find and consult it
themself.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">But when the
author’s name is written as
<i>Xùliàn Lǐ</i>, I have no idea
how that would be written in
Chinese, thus making it more
difficult to find the literature
when needed.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">So what is the
logical purpose of requiring the
article to be cited ONLY in
Latin script?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">The only logical
reason I can think of is that it
saves some space – ca. one line
per citation. But is that a good
enough reason to make things
harder for those actually
wanting to find and read the
cited work?</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">I would like to
hear your opinion on this
matter.</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">(I’m asking this
question on Lingtyp mailing
list, because our subfield makes
it necessary for some of us to
make extensive use of
non-Latin-script literature.)</span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">From Daejeon,</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE">Ian</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;"
lang="en-DE"></span></p>
<p
class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span
lang="en-DE"> </span></p>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10
D-07745 Jena
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig </pre>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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