<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Wouldn't the "main name" be the part of the name that is used when a person is being addressed by someone of equal social status? (Though outside a family setting, to exclude kin terms.)<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Another approach would be to measure the informational content of the different parts of a name, and use the part that has the highest informational content. I remember there was a paper some time ago by Michael Ramscar and colleagues, which pointed out that in most cultures, the most distinctive part of a name is the one that appears at the end; this is true of both Chinese given names and traditional European surnames (which usually indicated a place of origin; this is still largely true of Dutch surnames). The current situation with English names (where given names are more distinctive than surnames, despite being listed first) seems to be an aberration.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Siva</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 1 Apr 2020, at 12:18 am, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" class="">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
  
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
  
  <div class=""><p class="">I like Martin's idea of treating this issue as one of comparative
      concepts, but I am not sure how to apply this in practice.  His
      idea, as I understand it, is to identify, across different naming
      traditions, a comparative concept that one might, perhaps, refer
      to as "main name" (using lower case terms as befitting comparative
      concepts).  But this doesn't solve the problem of how to map "main
      name" onto particular language-specific name categories. 
      Intuitively, for the Indonesian Soenjono Dardjowidjojo, it would
      be Soenjono that is the main name; similarly, for Icelandic and
      other similar languages, it would be the first name, not the
      patronym that is the main name.  But these are just my intuitions,
      and I'm not sure how this would generalize to other naming
      traditions even within Indonesia, let alone Korean, Arabic, and
      many other languages.  I guess what we need is an objective
      criterion (or set of criteria) that would be applicable across the
      world's naming traditions.  But we're clearly not there yet.</p><p class=""><br class="">
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 20:51, Haspelmath, Martin
      wrote:<br class="">
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:db54a47c-5a1b-e797-b874-3b8a8f49ad90@shh.mpg.de" class="">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">The issue mentioned by David and
        Randy also arises with names from India. The well-known Tamil
        expert E. Annamalai once told me that he had just a single name,
        "Annamalai", and that he added the "abbreviated given name E."
        merely in order to fit into the expectations of foreigners. (His
        father's name began with "E", so this seemed the least arbitrary
        choice.)<br class="">
        <br class="">
        And in Europe, a frequent issue is how to find Dutch names
        (because in the Dutch tradition, the "surname proclitics" do not
        count for alphabetic sorting, and they vary in spelling
        depending on the context).<br class="">
        <br class="">
        So it may not be an exaggeration to say that each naming
        tradition has its own categories, just as each language hs its
        own categories.<br class="">
        <br class="">
        To be sure, we want to compare names across naming traditions,
        so we need comparative concepts. In the
        <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistics/past-research-resources/resources/generic-style-rules.html" class="">Generic
          Style Rules</a>, the proposal is to have an obligatory surname
        field, and an optional given name field – so the Indian/Tibetan
        names are not anomalous (because the given name is optional),
        and neither would the Dutch names (because the surnames would be
        treated uniformly). It seems that this would be largely
        compatible with the practices of most publishers.<br class="">
        <br class="">
        It may be possible to have even more complex systems (along the
        lines suggested by Christian), but I think the beauty of the
        Generic Style Rules is that they are only 14 pages long. They
        specify a number of fixed rules, but otherwise leave a lot of
        freedom. (In contrast, the APA manual is over 200 pages long,
        costs €35, and contains some ancient rules that are culturally
        insensitive, so put it mildly.)<br class="">
        <br class="">
        Best,<br class="">
        Martin<br class="">
        <br class="">
        On 31.03.20 14:14, David Gil wrote:<br class="">
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:74d081ef-b32b-c544-cf3d-a815e8682786@shh.mpg.de" class=""><p class="">Dear all,</p><p class="">It seems there's a (welcome) consensus that we need to
          include non-Latin scripts in our citations.  But Liu Danqing's
          latest post reminds me that there is a different but related
          issue pertaining not to the script but rather to the "grammar"
          of the name, even when it's in Latin script.  This problem is
          particularly acute in (though certainly not limited to) names
          in Malay/Indonesian, where even within Indonesia, people of
          different ethnicities have names associated with different
          structures.  For example, a name such as Soenjono
          Dardjowidjojo (a prominent Indonesian linguist) is often
          treated as though Dardjowidjojo were his surname and Soenjono
          his first name, and therefore alphabetized under "D" and cited
          as, e.g. "Dardjowidjojo (1965)", whereas according to local
          conventions, Soenjono is his most important name, and he
          should actually be alphabetized under "S" and cited as, e.g.
          "Soenjono (1965)".  But other Indonesians have different name
          structures, and some structure their names in the western way,
          namely first name plus surname.  When referring to Indonesian
          authors, I find it very challenging to refer to each author in
          the correct way, and probably end up making quite a few
          mistakes in doing so.  (Sorry: I don't have an easy solution
          to offer, I just wanted to draw attention to the problem,
          which, as I said above, is not specific to Malay/Indonesian.)</p><p class="">Best wishes,</p><p class="">David</p><p class=""><br class="">
        </p>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31/03/2020 19:30, LIU Danqing
          wrote:<br class="">
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1353386041.1063917.1585654205745@mail.yahoo.com" class="">
          <div class="ydp691a454dyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:
            lucida console, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">Dear Walter and all:</div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class="">I agree with Walter's comment about the citation of
              Chinese author names. Let me mention some figures.</div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">  In China, where we have
              the population of 1.4 billion, some surnames are extremely
              frequent.</div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">  Of each of the top
              three surnames, Zhang (for Taiwan spelling: Chang, and
              Hong Kong Cantonese spelling: Cheung), Wang (Cantonese:
              Wong), and Li (Hong Kong: Lee), we have around 100 million
              people. My Surname Liu is the fourth biggest one, with a <span class=""><span style="font-family: 'lucida console', sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" class="">population </span></span>around
              60 million . Even within linguistic field, we have many
              many Zhangs, Wangs and Lis.</div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">  So, Chinese usually
              identifies a person by his/her full name, especially in
              academic citation. The information such as Li (1998) or
              Wang (2008) or Zhang, J. 2005, Liu, T. 2016 is much less
              informative than we need. </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">  In addition, Chinese is
              a tone language. When we use Latin Script, the tone
              distinction between names is neutralized. </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">So I prefer to keep
              longer forms for Chinese names in citation.<br class="">
              <br class="">
                </div>
            <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
            <div class=""><br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
          <div id="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted_5782009945" class="ydp215220d4yahoo_quoted">
            <div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
              sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;" class="">
              <div class="">On Tuesday, March 31, 2020, 4:59:12 PM GMT+8, Bisang,
                Prof. Dr. Walter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wbisang@uni-mainz.de" moz-do-not-send="true">
                  <wbisang@uni-mainz.de></a> wrote: </div>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
              <div class="">
                <div id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583" class="">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="">
                    <div dir="ltr" id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size: 12pt;" class=""><p class="">Dear Ian,</p><p class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                      </p><p class="">taking up Christian Lehmann's mail, I first
                        want to say that I fully support your view.</p><p class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                      </p><p class="">Publishers may intend to save space but the
                        consequences of that are that it may be hard to
                        find and read the original paper. In many cases,
                        these regulations even affect the author’s
                        identification (and her/his rights). This can
                        well be the case with Chinese authors. Given the
                        frequency of some surnames (e.g. Zhang), one
                        also needs to see the first name in Chinese
                        characters. Citations of the type of "Zhang,
                        J.", as they are common practice in many
                        scientific journals, are not very helpful.
                        <span class="">Of course, the real pecialists may easily
                          be able to identify an other author even if
                          her/his name is only given in transcription,
                          but this cannot be taken for granted as soon
                          as a paper is written for a somewhat wider
                          audience.
                        </span>Other languages with Non-Latin script
                        come with other problems but the overall problem
                        is rarely discussed. Let me just point out one
                        additional problem, which is the absence of a
                        standardized transcription or the existence of
                        several competing systems of transcription.</p><p class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                      </p><p class="">As for your suggestion of how to cite Chinese
                        publications, I'd suggest to translate the title
                        into English as well (for those who cannot read
                        and speak the language).
                      </p><p class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                      </p><p class="">All the best,</p><p class="">Walter (Bisang)<br clear="none" class="">
                      </p><p class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                      </p><p class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                      </p>
                      <br clear="none" class="">
                      <div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt0550918069" id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583yqt83560">
                        <div style="" class="">
                          <hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;width:98%;" class="">
                          <div dir="ltr" id="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583divRplyFwdMsg" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri,
                              sans-serif" class=""><b class="">From:</b>
                              Lingtyp
                              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of
                              Daniel Ross <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                <djross3@gmail.com></a><br clear="none" class="">
                              <b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 31, 2020 9:17
                              AM<br clear="none" class="">
                              <b class="">To:</b> Joo, Ian<br clear="none" class="">
                              <b class="">Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br clear="none" class="">
                              <b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Why cite
                              non-Latin-script literature ONLY in Latin
                              script?</font>
                            <div class=""> </div>
                          </div>
                          <div class="">
                            <div dir="ltr" class="">
                              <div class="">Thanks for this question. I'd love to
                                join in the discussion by saying that
                                from my perspective, this practice is
                                frustrating and harmful for my
                                productivity. Specifically, I often work
                                with references not written in a
                                language that I know well. And it can
                                take me a very long time to reconstruct
                                the original script representation of
                                the for example romanized Chinese to
                                guess what the actual characters were in
                                order to locate the cited article. At
                                that point I can slowly work through it
                                using a mix of dictionaries, Google
                                Translate, etc. If from the perspective
                                of a speaker of these languages this is
                                also a problem, then I would strongly
                                suggest the practice be ended
                                immediately.</div>
                              <div class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                              </div>
                              <div class="">Of course there is a historical
                                explanation: it was once very hard to
                                type out the scripts of non-Roman
                                languages. But now that we've had
                                unicode for a long time actually, that's
                                no longer a relevant reason. If it were,
                                we'd find journals publishing the titles
                                of articles in Romanized characters too,
                                or at least listing them that way
                                through search engines.</div>
                              <div class=""><br clear="none" class="">
                              </div>
                              <div class="">Daniel<br clear="none" class="">
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <br clear="none" class="">
                            <div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote">
                              <div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 12:10
                                AM Joo, Ian <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:joo@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">joo@shh.mpg.de</a>>
                                wrote:<br clear="none" class="">
                              </div>
                              <blockquote class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;">
                                <div lang="en-DE" class="">
                                  <div class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583gmail-m_-8811224892623260417WordSection1"><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">Dear all,</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">I would like to ask
                                        a question to everybody:</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">When citing
                                        literature written in non-Latin
                                        script, why do some editors
                                        require it to be
                                      </span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US" class="">cited ONLY in Latin
                                        script?</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US" class="">For example, this
                                        is how I would cite a Chinese
                                        book, when writing an article in
                                        English:</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">Xùliàn</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">旭</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">练</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">Lǐ</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">李</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">.<i class="">Láiyǔ yánjiū</i></span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">倈语</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">硏究</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">. Zhōngguó xīn
                                        fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">中</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">国</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">新</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">发现语</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">言</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">研</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">究</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">丛书</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">. Zhōngyāng mínzú
                                        dàxué chūbǎnshè</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">中央民族大</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">学</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">出版社</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">, Běijīng</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="ZH-CN" class="">北京</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class=""></span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">As you can see, in
                                        both the original script
                                        (Chinese) and Latin script.
                                      </span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="EN-US" class="">But some editors
                                        require it to be:</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36pt;"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">Xùliàn Lǐ.
                                        <i class="">Láiyǔ yánjiū</i>. Zhōngguó
                                        xīn fāxiàn yǔyán yánjiū cóngshū.
                                        Zhōngyāng mínzú dàxué chūbǎnshè,
                                        Běijīng.</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">But why would we
                                        not write the original script
                                        and ONLY write in Latin script?</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">The point of citing
                                        literature is to enable the
                                        reader to go find and consult it
                                        themself.</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">But when the
                                        author’s name is written as
                                        <i class="">Xùliàn Lǐ</i>, I have no idea
                                        how that would be written in
                                        Chinese, thus making it more
                                        difficult to find the literature
                                        when needed.</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">So what is the
                                        logical purpose of requiring the
                                        article to be cited ONLY in
                                        Latin script?</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">The only logical
                                        reason I can think of is that it
                                        saves some space – ca. one line
                                        per citation. But is that a good
                                        enough reason to make things
                                        harder for those actually
                                        wanting to find and read the
                                        cited work?</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">I would like to
                                        hear your opinion on this
                                        matter.</span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">(I’m asking this
                                        question on Lingtyp mailing
                                        list, because our subfield makes
                                        it necessary for some of us to
                                        make extensive use of
                                        non-Latin-script literature.)</span></p><div class=""><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">From Daejeon,</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class=""></span></p><p class="ydp215220d4yiv6349392583MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class="">Ian</span><span style="font-size:12pt;" lang="en-DE" class=""></span></p><div class=""><span lang="en-DE" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
                                  </div>
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                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
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                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div class="ydp215220d4yqt0550918069" id="ydp215220d4yqt50177">_______________________________________________<br clear="none" class="">
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          <br class="">
          <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
          <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
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</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
David Gil
 
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
 
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
        <br class="">
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" moz-do-not-send="true">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <br class="">
      <br class="">
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" moz-do-not-send="true">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10   
D-07745 Jena  
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik 
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig  </pre>
      <br class="">
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
David Gil
 
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
 
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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