<div dir="ltr">Dear David,<div><br></div><div>The nchakui’ tsū’ ntīlú ‘speaking backwards’ play language of Zenzontepec Chatino (Otomanguean) displays pattern (b) 123 > 231, and sheds light on moraicity, the representation of tone, and other questions. </div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div>kutunu → tūnúku ‘large crayfish’</div><div>kūnáɁa → náɁaku ‘woman’</div><div>kʷilīʃí → lʲīʃíkʷi ‘butterfly’</div><div>kilituɁ → lʲītʲúɁki ‘navel of’</div><div>kʷitīɁjú → tʲīɁjúkʷi ‘lightning</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The language doesn’t have lexical stress, but the final syllable is the most prominent syllable of the phonological word, meaning, in this case, it (i) displays the most phonological contrasts (contrastive V nasality, V length, coda glottal stop) and (ii) tends to be the syllable with greatest duration. This was just published open access last month in PD&A: <a href="https://phondata.org/index.php/pda/issue/view/5">https://phondata.org/index.php/pda/issue/view/5</a></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Eric Campbell</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:27 AM Hiroto Uchihara <<a href="mailto:uchihara@buffalo.edu">uchihara@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear David,<div><br></div><div>According to the Ito et al. (1996), fu.men 'score' > men.fu, mo.dan 'modern' > dan.mo, ya.súi 'cheap' > sui.ya; here, we could say that the syllables are reversed or the same 123 > 231 reversing is being applied. With longer words, they report ba.tsu.gun 'fantastic' > gun.ba.tsu, ki.chí.gai 'crazy' > gai.ki.chi, koo.híi 'coffee' > hii.koo so maybe 123..X > (X-1)(X)123.. with moraic counting is more general. They also report cases of 123 > 321 (with moraic counting), such as pán.tsu ~ pan.tsu 'pants' > <a href="http://tsun.pa" target="_blank">tsun.pa</a>, tái.pu 'type' > pui.ta.</div><div><br></div><div>Hiroto </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:59, David Gil (<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>) escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Hiroto,</p>
<p>Thanks, this is very helpful. I'm curious about one thing
though. In the examples that you cited, the mora happens to
correspond to a syllable, so it is not possible to tell whether it
is moras or syllables that are being reversed. But there are lots
of other words where the mora is less than a complete syllable —
what happens in such words?</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 17/05/2020 19:35, Hiroto Uchihara
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Japanese Zuu-jaa go does this, although I don't use this
ludling so I don't have an intuition (I believe it became
obsolete in the 90's). It looks like tri-moraic words follow
the pattern 123 > 231 (Ito, Kitagawa & Mester 1996),
such as <a href="http://pi.a.no" target="_blank">pi.a.no</a> 'piano' > ya.no.pi, <a href="http://shi.ka.ke" target="_blank">shi.ka.ke</a> 'trick' > ka.ke.shi,
ma.zú.i 'tastes bad' > <a href="http://zu.i.ma" target="_blank">zu.i.ma</a>, ku.su.ri
'drug' > su.ri.ku. It appears that the location of the
pitch accent doesn't matter: 'tastes bad' have accent on the
penultimate mora while others are unaccented. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope this helps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Reference:</div>
<div>Ito, Junko, Yoshihisa Kitagawa & Armin Mester. 1996.
Prosodic faithfulness and correspondence: evidence from
Japanese argot. Journal of East Asian Linguistics 5.3:
217-294.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hiroto</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a
la(s) 11:03, David Gil (<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>)
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ludlings (aka play
languages or secret languages) are often constructed by
reversing the order of syllables in a word.<span> </span>Using
numerals to denote syllables, 12 > 21.<span> </span>But
what happens when there are three (or more) syllables in
the word?<span> </span>For tri-syllabic words, the two
most common outcomes are</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(a) 123 > 312</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(b) 123 > 231</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Riau Indonesian
ludling I have written about has the (a) pattern, eg. <i>bahasa
> sabaha</i>. But a friend of mine in Papua has
recently started writing to me in a ludling using the
(b) pattern, e.g. <i>bahasa > hasaba</i>.<span> </span>Which
got me curious.<span> </span>According to Wikipedia,
the French ludling <i>verlan</i> may use either option,
e.g. <i>cigarette</i> > <i>restiga</i> or <i>garetsi</i>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would appreciate
any information you might be able to provide with regard
to syllable-reversing ludlings of this kind that you
might be familiar with in other languages.<span> </span>Specifically,
I would like to know:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1) which pattern is
followed in tri-syllabic words: (a), (b), or perhaps
other?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(2) what is the
location of word-stress in the language?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The motivation
behind the second question is that I have a hunch that
the difference between the ludlings in closely related
Riau Indonesian and Papuan Malay might be due to their
different stress patterns — a hypothesis that is easily
tested by looking at a handful of other languages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p> </p>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div>
<div><a href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br>
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<div>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas</div>
<div>Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas</div>
<div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México</div>
<div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div>
<div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de
México.</div>
<div>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div>
<div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div><div><a href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br></div><div>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas</div><div>Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas</div><div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México</div><div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div><div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.</div><div>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div><div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><b><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Eric W. Campbell</font></b></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small">Assistant Professor of Linguistics<br></div><div style="font-size:small"><span style="font-size:x-small">Director of Undergraduate Studies, Linguistics</span><br></div><div style="font-size:small"><span style="font-size:x-small">Faculty in Residence, San Joaquin and Sierra Madre Villages</span><br></div><div style="font-size:small"><span style="font-size:x-small">Academic Council, </span><font size="1">American Indian and Indigenous Collective </font></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><font size="1"><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><font size="1">Department of Linguistics<br>South Hall 3432<br><font color="#0b5394">University of California, Santa Barbara</font><br><font color="#000000">Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3100<br></font></font></div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:x-small"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:x-small">Zoom Room: </span></div><div dir="ltr"><font size="1"><font color="#000000"><a href="https://ucsb.zoom.us/my/eric.campbell" target="_blank">https://ucsb.zoom.us/my/eric.campbell</a><br></font></font></div><div style="font-size:small"><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>