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<p>Dear Hiroto,</p>
<p>Thanks, this is very helpful. I'm curious about one thing
though. In the examples that you cited, the mora happens to
correspond to a syllable, so it is not possible to tell whether it
is moras or syllables that are being reversed. But there are lots
of other words where the mora is less than a complete syllable —
what happens in such words?</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/05/2020 19:35, Hiroto Uchihara
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHtg+de6vcZ6AYehpvSW=tbGY3FKq3TaJN8ewNh57LQVGkhYrA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Japanese Zuu-jaa go does this, although I don't use this
ludling so I don't have an intuition (I believe it became
obsolete in the 90's). It looks like tri-moraic words follow
the pattern 123 > 231 (Ito, Kitagawa & Mester 1996),
such as <a href="http://pi.a.no" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pi.a.no</a> 'piano' > ya.no.pi, <a
href="http://shi.ka.ke" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">shi.ka.ke</a> 'trick' > ka.ke.shi,
ma.zú.i 'tastes bad' > <a href="http://zu.i.ma"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zu.i.ma</a>, ku.su.ri
'drug' > su.ri.ku. It appears that the location of the
pitch accent doesn't matter: 'tastes bad' have accent on the
penultimate mora while others are unaccented. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope this helps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Reference:</div>
<div>Ito, Junko, Yoshihisa Kitagawa & Armin Mester. 1996.
Prosodic faithfulness and correspondence: evidence from
Japanese argot. Journal of East Asian Linguistics 5.3:
217-294.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hiroto</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a
la(s) 11:03, David Gil (<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>)
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ludlings (aka play
languages or secret languages) are often constructed by
reversing the order of syllables in a word.<span> </span>Using
numerals to denote syllables, 12 > 21.<span> </span>But
what happens when there are three (or more) syllables in
the word?<span> </span>For tri-syllabic words, the two
most common outcomes are</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(a) 123 > 312</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(b) 123 > 231</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Riau Indonesian
ludling I have written about has the (a) pattern, eg. <i>bahasa
> sabaha</i>. But a friend of mine in Papua has
recently started writing to me in a ludling using the
(b) pattern, e.g. <i>bahasa > hasaba</i>.<span> </span>Which
got me curious.<span> </span>According to Wikipedia,
the French ludling <i>verlan</i> may use either option,
e.g. <i>cigarette</i> > <i>restiga</i> or <i>garetsi</i>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would appreciate
any information you might be able to provide with regard
to syllable-reversing ludlings of this kind that you
might be familiar with in other languages.<span> </span>Specifically,
I would like to know:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1) which pattern is
followed in tri-syllabic words: (a), (b), or perhaps
other?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(2) what is the
location of word-stress in the language?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The motivation
behind the second question is that I have a hunch that
the difference between the ludlings in closely related
Riau Indonesian and Papuan Malay might be due to their
different stress patterns — a hypothesis that is easily
tested by looking at a handful of other languages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p> </p>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<div><br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div>
<div><a
href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br>
</div>
<div>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas</div>
<div>Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas</div>
<div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México</div>
<div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div>
<div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de
México.</div>
<div>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div>
<div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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