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<p>Dear David,</p>
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<p>in an argot of Tehrani musicians (that has probably died out meantime),</p>
<p>1 2 -> 2-e 1 plus long vowel, e.g.:</p>
<p>sag "dog" -> age-sā</p>
<p>gol "flower" -> ole-gū (see <font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3">Bolūkbāšī</font></font> 1361)</p>
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<p>You will probably find more of this kind of Iranian phonetic argots in Chromov 1976. For both, you will find the reference also in my article from 2000 (p. 113). I also remember that in Serbo-Croatian-Bosnian, a children's ludling code goes like this:</p>
<p>1 2 3 -> 3 1 2, e.g.</p>
<p>telefon -> fóntele, with a stress on the first syllable.</p>
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<p>Best,</p>
<p>Ludwig</p>
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<font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3">Bolūkbāšī, ʿAlī. </font></font><font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3">„Lōter“.
<i>Ketāb-e hafte</i> 37, 1340 [1961], p. 165-171</font></font></p>
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<font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3">Chromov, Albert Leonidovič<span style="font-style: normal"></span></font></font><font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3">. „Uslovnye jazyki u iranskych narodov“.
<i>Vostočnaja <br>
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<font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3"><i> Filologija</i> IV, Dušanbe 1976, p. 3-19.</font></font></p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.99cm; text-indent: -0.99cm; margin-bottom: 0cm"><font face="TITUS Cyberbit Basic, serif"><font size="3">Paul, Ludwig. Die Geheimsprache von Kahak (Tafreš)“.
<i>Orientalia Suecana</i> XLVIII, 2000, p. 105-114.</font></font></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>Von:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von Hiroto Uchihara <uchihara@buffalo.edu><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag, 17. Mai 2020 18:35:32<br>
<b>An:</b> David Gil<br>
<b>Cc:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Query: syllable-reversing ludlings</font>
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<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
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<div>Japanese Zuu-jaa go does this, although I don't use this ludling so I don't have an intuition (I believe it became obsolete in the 90's). It looks like tri-moraic words follow the pattern 123 > 231 (Ito, Kitagawa & Mester 1996), such as
<a href="http://pi.a.no" target="_blank">pi.a.no</a> 'piano' > ya.no.pi, <a href="http://shi.ka.ke" target="_blank">
shi.ka.ke</a> 'trick' > ka.ke.shi, ma.zú.i 'tastes bad' > <a href="http://zu.i.ma" target="_blank">
zu.i.ma</a>, ku.su.ri 'drug' > su.ri.ku. It appears that the location of the pitch accent doesn't matter: 'tastes bad' have accent on the penultimate mora while others are unaccented. </div>
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<div>I hope this helps.</div>
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<div>Reference:</div>
<div>Ito, Junko, Yoshihisa Kitagawa & Armin Mester. 1996. Prosodic faithfulness and correspondence: evidence from Japanese argot. Journal of East Asian Linguistics 5.3: 217-294.</div>
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<div>Hiroto</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El dom., 17 de may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:03, David Gil (<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>) escribió:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear all,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ludlings (aka play languages or secret languages) are often constructed by reversing the order of syllables in a word.<span>
</span>Using numerals to denote syllables, 12 > 21.<span> </span>But what happens when there are three (or more) syllables in the word?<span>
</span>For tri-syllabic words, the two most common outcomes are</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(a) 123 > 312</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(b) 123 > 231</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Riau Indonesian ludling I have written about has the (a) pattern, eg.
<i>bahasa > sabaha</i>. But a friend of mine in Papua has recently started writing to me in a ludling using the (b) pattern, e.g.
<i>bahasa > hasaba</i>.<span> </span>Which got me curious.<span> </span>According to Wikipedia, the French ludling
<i>verlan</i> may use either option, e.g. <i>cigarette</i> > <i>restiga</i> or <i>
garetsi</i>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would appreciate any information you might be able to provide with regard to syllable-reversing ludlings of this kind that you might be familiar with in other languages.<span>
</span>Specifically, I would like to know:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1) which pattern is followed in tri-syllabic words: (a), (b), or perhaps other?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(2) what is the location of word-stress in the language?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The motivation behind the second question is that I have a hunch that the difference between the ludlings in closely related Riau Indonesian and Papuan Malay might be due to their different stress patterns — a hypothesis
that is easily tested by looking at a handful of other languages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p></p>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div>
<div><a href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br>
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<div>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas</div>
<div>Instituto de Investigaciones Filológicas</div>
<div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México</div>
<div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div>
<div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad de México.</div>
<div>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div>
<div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext. 49223</div>
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