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<p>Dear Eric,</p>
<p>Thanks, this is very useful, albeit in a negative kind of way, as
it appears to refute my original hunch: whereas Zenzontepec
Chatino exhibits the (b) 123 > 231 pattern of Papuan Malay, its
final syllable prominence resembles that of Riau Indonesian which
exhibits the (a) 123 > 312 pattern. Thereby suggesting that
there's no obvious correlation between the choice between (a) and
(b) patterns on the one hand, and the languages' stress patterns
on the other. <br>
</p>
<p>But I'd still really appreciate more data from other languages,
to see if any other correlation emerges, or whether the choice
between (a) and (b) patterns is just random.</p>
<p>Best,<br>
</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/05/2020 21:25, Eric Campbell
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAERkWhyCNxHQ_uQnAVf52sOs==s0rLa9SA_ib30XMb+9U0ka-g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The nchakui’ tsū’ ntīlú ‘speaking backwards’ play
language of Zenzontepec Chatino (Otomanguean) displays pattern
(b) 123 > 231, and sheds light on moraicity, the
representation of tone, and other questions. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>kutunu → tūnúku ‘large crayfish’</div>
<div>kūnáɁa → náɁaku ‘woman’</div>
<div>kʷilīʃí → lʲīʃíkʷi ‘butterfly’</div>
<div>kilituɁ → lʲītʲúɁki ‘navel of’</div>
<div>kʷitīɁjú → tʲīɁjúkʷi ‘lightning</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The language doesn’t have lexical stress, but the final
syllable is the most prominent syllable of the phonological
word, meaning, in this case, it (i) displays the most
phonological contrasts (contrastive V nasality, V length, coda
glottal stop) and (ii) tends to be the syllable with greatest
duration. This was just published open access last month in
PD&A: <a
href="https://phondata.org/index.php/pda/issue/view/5"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://phondata.org/index.php/pda/issue/view/5</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric Campbell</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 10:27
AM Hiroto Uchihara <<a href="mailto:uchihara@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">uchihara@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>According to the Ito et al. (1996), fu.men 'score' >
men.fu, mo.dan 'modern' > dan.mo, ya.súi 'cheap' >
sui.ya; here, we could say that the syllables are reversed
or the same 123 > 231 reversing is being applied. With
longer words, they report ba.tsu.gun 'fantastic' >
gun.ba.tsu, ki.chí.gai 'crazy' > gai.ki.chi, koo.híi
'coffee' > hii.koo so maybe 123..X > (X-1)(X)123..
with moraic counting is more general. They also report
cases of 123 > 321 (with moraic counting), such as
pán.tsu ~ pan.tsu 'pants' > <a href="http://tsun.pa"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tsun.pa</a>,
tái.pu 'type' > pui.ta.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hiroto </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El dom., 17 de may. de
2020 a la(s) 11:59, David Gil (<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>) escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Hiroto,</p>
<p>Thanks, this is very helpful. I'm curious about one
thing though. In the examples that you cited, the
mora happens to correspond to a syllable, so it is not
possible to tell whether it is moras or syllables that
are being reversed. But there are lots of other words
where the mora is less than a complete syllable — what
happens in such words?</p>
<p>Best wishes,</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 17/05/2020 19:35, Hiroto Uchihara wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear David,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Japanese Zuu-jaa go does this, although I don't
use this ludling so I don't have an intuition (I
believe it became obsolete in the 90's). It looks
like tri-moraic words follow the pattern 123 >
231 (Ito, Kitagawa & Mester 1996), such as <a
href="http://pi.a.no" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pi.a.no</a> 'piano' >
ya.no.pi, <a href="http://shi.ka.ke"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">shi.ka.ke</a>
'trick' > ka.ke.shi, ma.zú.i 'tastes bad' >
<a href="http://zu.i.ma" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">zu.i.ma</a>, ku.su.ri
'drug' > su.ri.ku. It appears that the location
of the pitch accent doesn't matter: 'tastes bad'
have accent on the penultimate mora while others
are unaccented. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope this helps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Reference:</div>
<div>Ito, Junko, Yoshihisa Kitagawa & Armin
Mester. 1996. Prosodic faithfulness and
correspondence: evidence from Japanese argot.
Journal of East Asian Linguistics 5.3: 217-294.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hiroto</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El dom., 17 de
may. de 2020 a la(s) 11:03, David Gil (<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>)
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear
all,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ludlings
(aka play languages or secret languages) are
often constructed by reversing the order of
syllables in a word.<span> </span>Using
numerals to denote syllables, 12 > 21.<span>
</span>But what happens when there are three
(or more) syllables in the word?<span> </span>For
tri-syllabic words, the two most common
outcomes are</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(a) 123
> 312</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(b) 123
> 231</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Riau
Indonesian ludling I have written about has
the (a) pattern, eg. <i>bahasa > sabaha</i>.
But a friend of mine in Papua has recently
started writing to me in a ludling using the
(b) pattern, e.g. <i>bahasa > hasaba</i>.<span>
</span>Which got me curious.<span> </span>According
to Wikipedia, the French ludling <i>verlan</i>
may use either option, e.g. <i>cigarette</i>
> <i>restiga</i> or <i>garetsi</i>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would
appreciate any information you might be able
to provide with regard to syllable-reversing
ludlings of this kind that you might be
familiar with in other languages.<span> </span>Specifically,
I would like to know:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(1)
which pattern is followed in tri-syllabic
words: (a), (b), or perhaps other?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">(2) what
is the location of word-stress in the
language?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The
motivation behind the second question is
that I have a hunch that the difference
between the ludlings in closely related Riau
Indonesian and Papuan Malay might be due to
their different stress patterns — a
hypothesis that is easily tested by looking
at a handful of other languages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p> </p>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div>
<div><a
href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br>
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<div>Seminario de Lenguas
Indígenas</div>
<div>Instituto de Investigaciones
Filológicas</div>
<div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma
de México</div>
<div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div>
<div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510,
Ciudad de México.</div>
<div>Tel.
Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div>
<div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250,
Ext. 49223</div>
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</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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<div>Dr. Hiroto Uchihara</div>
<div><a
href="https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://sites.google.com/view/hiroto-uchihara/home?authuser=0</a><br>
</div>
<div>Seminario de Lenguas Indígenas</div>
<div>Instituto de Investigaciones
Filológicas</div>
<div>Universidad Nacional Autónoma de
México</div>
<div>Circuito Mario de la Cueva</div>
<div>Ciudad Universitaria, 04510, Ciudad
de México.</div>
<div>Tel. Seminario:(+52)-(55)-5622-7489</div>
<div>Office: (+52)-(55)-5622-7250, Ext.
49223</div>
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<div dir="ltr" style="font-size:small"><b><font
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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