<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Dear Juergen,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Just a clarifying question (I'm interested because I've attempted to develop a method to quantify the degree to which some set of morphemes is morphologized and I have struggled with defining "functional" in a consistent fashion, and actually I have just given up)<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Wouldn't your definition imply that anything that was not an open lexical class would be "functional"? <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">There's plenty of languages that have a closed class of adjectives - shouldn't these be "functional" in your sense?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Maybe adjectives could be added to your class of morphemes that tend to become functional regardless of contact [?]... but just in case they are not a lexical class. But do adjectives express redundant information or not?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">I'm also skeptical that an easy decision can be made regarding the lexical vs. functional status of classifiers, but this is perhaps outside the scope of your research question.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">(I would take a close look at Krasnoukhova's dissertation on the Noun Phrase in South American languages for both of these issues)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">best,<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Adam<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"> <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:25 AM Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se">oesten@ling.su.se</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks, Frans, for the link to this paper, which I had not seen. (I did read Fehling’s paper, however, quite long ago.) For the record, though: although Peust claims (reasonably, it
seems) that Egyptian is the ultimate source, he doesn’t say that Greek got it straight from there. Instead, he says that it is remarkable that the definite article shows up in Greek in the same time period as the Greeks took over the Phoenician script, thus
suggesting Phoenician, a Semitic language, as the proximate source for the Greek definite article.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In light of Peust’s claims, it is maybe Egyptian that is most relevant for Jürgen’s project. Although who knows if they didn’t get the article from somebody else?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<li class="gmail-m_-3174123682260356153MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm"><span lang="EN-US">Östen
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Från:</b> Uni KN <<a href="mailto:frans.plank@uni-konstanz.de" target="_blank">frans.plank@uni-konstanz.de</a>> <br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 17 juni 2020 00:04<br>
<b>Till:</b> Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>><br>
<b>Kopia:</b> LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Innovation of functional categories<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Close, Östen: they got it from Egyptian. Or so argues Carsten Peust, in <span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Göttinger Beiträge zur Sprachwissenschaft 2, 1999, S. 99-120</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:17.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Fälle von strukturellem Einfluss des Ägyptischen auf europäische Sprachen</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(1) Die Herausbildung des definiten Artikels, (2) Die Entwicklung des grammatischen femininen Genus, (3) Die inklusive Zählweise von Zeitintervallen</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/2274/1/Peust_Faelle_von_strukturellen_Einfluessen_1999.pdf" target="_blank">https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/2274/1/Peust_Faelle_von_strukturellen_Einfluessen_1999.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Similarly<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">LEVIN, Saul 1992: Studies in comparative grammar: I. The definite article, an Egyptian/Semitic/IndoEuropean etymology, in General Linguistics 32:1-15.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">FEHLING, Detlev 1980: The origins of European syntax, in Folia Linguistica Historica 1:353-387.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Frans<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 16. Jun 2020, at 18:25, Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This topic happened to come up in my recent conversation with Martin Haspelmath on his blog (<a href="https://dlc.hypotheses.org/2361" target="_blank">https://dlc.hypotheses.org/2361</a>). There are also some references there to earlier literature.<br>
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I would not bet on the definite article in Ancient Greek as an independent development. After all, definite articles were around in the neighbouring Semitic languages. If the Greeks got their alphabet from the Semitic-speaking peoples, they could also get the
article from them, I think.<br>
<br>
- Östen <br>
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<br>
-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----<br>
Från: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> För Bohnemeyer, Juergen<br>
Skickat: den 16 juni 2020 15:44<br>
Till: LINGTYP <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Ämne: Re: [Lingtyp] Innovation of functional categories<br>
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Dear Christian — Thank you very much for your response! I'll have much more to say about your suggestions, but for now, I’d just like to try a clarification:<br>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 16, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<br>
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<br>
To the extent that the contribution made by such expressions to the sentence meaning is indeed redundant, it would mean that the respective information is already contained in the context, and to this extent there would be no need for the hearer to employ inferencing.<u></u><u></u></p>
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I’m assuming a view of communication on which it is largely inference-based. The question on this view is not whether but how much inferencing the hearer has to do.
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Consider the information added by gender markers to pronouns and agreement morphology. In the vast majority of cases, this information is not needed for identifying the referent. But having it by my hypothesis still facilitates processing by further boosting
the predictability of the referent. As long as the added effort for speaker and hearer in processing the gender information is minimal (that’s where grammaticalization comes in), this may confer a minuscule processing advantage.
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<br>
Same story with tense or definiteness: in the vast majority of uses, tense markers and articles are not terribly informative (witness all the speech communities that get by happily without them), so that can’t be the reason why we grammaticalize them (that’s
my thinking, anyway).<br>
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<span lang="EN-US">(As to Givón, yes, absolutely, I’m well aware that I’m merely trying to retell a story functionalists have been telling since the dawn of functionalism :-))<br>
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Best — Juergen<br>
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor and Director of Graduate Studies Department of Linguistics and Center for Cognitive Science University at Buffalo
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">PhD, University of Texas at Austin<br></font><div><font face="times new roman, serif">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br></font><div><font face="times new roman, serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>ELDP -- </font>Postdoctorante<br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>CNRS -- </font>Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)</font></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>