<div dir="ltr">Hi everybody.<div><br></div><div>I reported this as a reaction to the original request in a personal email, but now that there is so much wonderful data and reactions I might ask in the list: </div><div><br></div><div>does anyone know of a pattern of address, formally both related and different to the one being discussed, where the apparently 'inverse use' of the term of address is placed inside a possessive construction, literally 'mother-Poss/Gen' addressing a child, 'aunt-Poss/Gen' to a nephew or niece etc. This occurs in (some parts of) Daghestan and I always wondered whether it was an adaptation / reinterpretation of the Near East / Georgian / etc pattern or an independent development. </div><div><br></div><div>Michael Daniel</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">пн, 24 авг. 2020 г. в 07:07, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
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    <p>As a footnote to Eitan's comments on Hebrew, I would add that the
      form <i>mama-le</i>, with the Yiddish-origin diminutive, is used
      not only by mothers addressing their children, but by extension
      also as an affectionate address term to persons of any gender, age
      and parental status (as I myself can attest to, as the occasional
      fortunate addressee).<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 20/08/2020 08:22, Eitan Grossman
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">Hi all,
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Modern Hebrew also has this phenomenon, e.g., <i>mami</i> or
            <i>mama</i> ('mom') and <i>abuya</i> ('my father'). Its
            sources seem to be both Maghrebi Judeo-Arabic and
            Palestinian Arabic, but it also makes sense that it might
            also come from Kurdish via Neo-Aramaic. Interestingly, a
            common term is<i> aba-le</i> (father-DIM), which takes a
            Yiddish-origin diminutive suffix on an Aramaic-origin noun,
            while the very use of the 'father' term for a child is
            patterned on Arabic.</div>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>In Beduin Arabic of the Negev, these reversed kin terms
            are extremely extensive and seem to apply to pretty much any
            kin relationship. Henkin has written about this a lot, e.g.,
            Ch 10 of her <span style="font-family:Helvetica">2010. Negev
              Arabic: Dialectal, Sociolinguistic, and Stylistic
              Variation. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz. It's also worth
              checking out her work on cursing, which can involve what
              looks like 'self-cursing' due to the kinship term
              reversal.</span></div>
          <div><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
            </span></div>
          <div><span style="font-family:Helvetica">Eitan</span></div>
          <div><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
            </span></div>
          <div><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
            </span></div>
          <div>
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                                                <div dir="ltr">Eitan
                                                  Grossman
                                                  <div>Associate
                                                    Professor,
                                                    Department of
                                                    Linguistics<br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>Chair, Department
                                                    of Linguistics<br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>Hebrew University
                                                    of Jerusalem</div>
                                                  <div>Tel: +972 2 588
                                                    3809</div>
                                                  <div>Fax: +972 2 588
                                                    1224</div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
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            <br>
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      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 7:27
          AM Nino Amiridze <<a href="mailto:nino.amiridze@gmail.com" target="_blank">nino.amiridze@gmail.com</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div>Dear Sergey,<br>
                <br>
                Georgian (Kartvelian) has the phenomenon. Young people
                may get addressed by their older relatives by the term
                that refers to the relatives themselves. For instance,
                if a grandmother addresses her grandson (say, Giorgi),
                she may address him by uttering (a) or (b):<br>
                <br>
                (a) giorgi, modi chemtan!<br>
                Giorgi, come <a href="http://to.me" target="_blank">to.me</a><br>
                "
                Giorgi, come to me!"<br>
                <br>
                or<br>
                <br>
                (b) bebia/bebiko, modi chemtan!<br>
                grandmother/granny, come to me<br>
                Lit.: grandmother, come to me!<br>
                "Giorgi, come to me!"<br>
                <br>
                This phenomenon is discussed in Boeder 1988 (<a href="http://www.staff.uni-oldenburg.de/winfried.boeder/download/52_Boeder_1988_Ueber_einige_Anredeformen_imKaukasus.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.staff.uni-oldenburg.de/winfried.boeder/download/52_Boeder_1988_Ueber_einige_Anredeformen_imKaukasus.pdf</a>),
                where he mentions similar cases in Lebanese Arabic
                described in Ayoub 1964 and Southern Italian dialects by
                Spitzer 1928. In both cases, the phenomenon is known
                from baby talk, when grown ups try to lower themselves
                to the level of children. As a result, a role
                substitution happens. Boeder brings Willis 1977 as a
                reference, according to which the role substitution is
                an important play when children and grown ups
                communicate in English baby talk.<br>
                <br>
                For me, as a native Georgian speaker, the explanation
                does not exactly make sense for Georgian. Rather, the
                address forms have always been a shortened forms of
                affectionate formulas:<br>
                <br>
                bebia [genacvalos / shemogevlos], modi chemtan!<br>
                grandmother [will.secrifice.herself.for.you], come to me</div>
              <div>'"X, come to me" (where X is a name of a grandkid)<br>
              </div>
              <div><br>
                I wonder what other native speakers have to say about
                the role substitution in Georgian. And I would be
                curious to learn whether the mentioned languages or
                others illustrating the phenomenon can have the 'role
                mirroring' due to shortening of blessing formulas.<br>
                <br>
                References:<br>
                <br>
                Ayoub, Millicent R. 1964. Bi-polarity in Arabic kinship
                terms. In Horace G. Lunt (ed.). Proceedings of the Ninth
                International Congress of Linguists. The Hague: Mouton,
                pp. 1100-1106.<br>
                <br>
                Boeder, Winfried, 1988. Über einige Anredeformen im
                Kaukasus. Georgika, Heft 11, pp. 11-20.<br>
                <br>
                Spitzer, Leo, 1928. Über Personenvertauschung in der
                Ammensprache. In L. Spitzer, Stilstudien. Hueber,
                München, 1928, pp. 26-38.<br>
                <br>
                Wills, Dorothy Davis, 1977. Participant deixis in
                English baby talk. In: C.E. Snow and Ch. A. Ferguson
                (eds.), Talking to Children. Language Input and
                Acquisition. Papers from a conference sponsored by the
                Committee on Sociolinguistics of the Social Science
                Research Council (USA). Cambridge, Cambridge University
                Press, pp. 271-295.<br>
                <br>
                Best regards,<br>
                Nino</div>
            </div>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">
              <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at
                9:26 PM Sergey Loesov <<a href="mailto:sergeloesov@gmail.com" target="_blank">sergeloesov@gmail.com</a>>
                wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear
                    colleagues,</p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In
                    various cultures (those I know of happen to be
                    mostly
                    Islamic) the form of address can be copied by the
                    addressee. Thus, when a
                    daughter addresses her mother as “Mummy”, the mother
                    often reciprocates, saying
                    to the daughter something like “yes, Mummy”, or
                    “what, Mummy…” (Same of course
                    with a son and his father.) </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In
                    particular, I came across this kind of exchange in
                    my
                    fieldwork with Kurdish (Kurmanji) and some
                    contemporary Aramaic varieties in Upper
                    Mesopotamia and Syria, but this phenomenon is also
                    current in the Soqotri
                    language, an unwritten Semitic language spoken on
                    the Socotra Island in the
                    Indian Ocean, southeast of Yemen. </p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Are
                    we aware of explanations for this kind of usage? Are
                    there cross-language studies of this kind of facts?</p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank
                    you very much!</p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sergey</p>
                </div>
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              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <br clear="all">
            <br>
            -- <br>
            <div dir="ltr">Dr. Nino Amiridze<br>
              <br>
              E-mail: <a href="mailto:Nino.Amiridze@gmail.com" target="_blank">Nino.Amiridze@gmail.com</a><br>
              WWW: <a href="https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/</a></div>
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    </blockquote>
    <pre cols="72">-- 
David Gil
 
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
 
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-556825895
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091</pre>
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