<div dir="ltr">Hi everybody.<div><br></div><div>I reported this as a reaction to the original request in a personal email, but now that there is so much wonderful data and reactions I might ask in the list: </div><div><br></div><div>does anyone know of a pattern of address, formally both related and different to the one being discussed, where the apparently 'inverse use' of the term of address is placed inside a possessive construction, literally 'mother-Poss/Gen' addressing a child, 'aunt-Poss/Gen' to a nephew or niece etc. This occurs in (some parts of) Daghestan and I always wondered whether it was an adaptation / reinterpretation of the Near East / Georgian / etc pattern or an independent development. </div><div><br></div><div>Michael Daniel</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">пн, 24 авг. 2020 г. в 07:07, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>As a footnote to Eitan's comments on Hebrew, I would add that the
form <i>mama-le</i>, with the Yiddish-origin diminutive, is used
not only by mothers addressing their children, but by extension
also as an affectionate address term to persons of any gender, age
and parental status (as I myself can attest to, as the occasional
fortunate addressee).<br>
</p>
<div>On 20/08/2020 08:22, Eitan Grossman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Hi all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Modern Hebrew also has this phenomenon, e.g., <i>mami</i> or
<i>mama</i> ('mom') and <i>abuya</i> ('my father'). Its
sources seem to be both Maghrebi Judeo-Arabic and
Palestinian Arabic, but it also makes sense that it might
also come from Kurdish via Neo-Aramaic. Interestingly, a
common term is<i> aba-le</i> (father-DIM), which takes a
Yiddish-origin diminutive suffix on an Aramaic-origin noun,
while the very use of the 'father' term for a child is
patterned on Arabic.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Beduin Arabic of the Negev, these reversed kin terms
are extremely extensive and seem to apply to pretty much any
kin relationship. Henkin has written about this a lot, e.g.,
Ch 10 of her <span style="font-family:Helvetica">2010. Negev
Arabic: Dialectal, Sociolinguistic, and Stylistic
Variation. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz. It's also worth
checking out her work on cursing, which can involve what
looks like 'self-cursing' due to the kinship term
reversal.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Helvetica">Eitan</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
</span></div>
<div>
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<div dir="ltr">Eitan
Grossman
<div>Associate
Professor,
Department of
Linguistics<br>
</div>
<div>Chair, Department
of Linguistics<br>
</div>
<div>Hebrew University
of Jerusalem</div>
<div>Tel: +972 2 588
3809</div>
<div>Fax: +972 2 588
1224</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 7:27
AM Nino Amiridze <<a href="mailto:nino.amiridze@gmail.com" target="_blank">nino.amiridze@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Sergey,<br>
<br>
Georgian (Kartvelian) has the phenomenon. Young people
may get addressed by their older relatives by the term
that refers to the relatives themselves. For instance,
if a grandmother addresses her grandson (say, Giorgi),
she may address him by uttering (a) or (b):<br>
<br>
(a) giorgi, modi chemtan!<br>
Giorgi, come <a href="http://to.me" target="_blank">to.me</a><br>
"
Giorgi, come to me!"<br>
<br>
or<br>
<br>
(b) bebia/bebiko, modi chemtan!<br>
grandmother/granny, come to me<br>
Lit.: grandmother, come to me!<br>
"Giorgi, come to me!"<br>
<br>
This phenomenon is discussed in Boeder 1988 (<a href="http://www.staff.uni-oldenburg.de/winfried.boeder/download/52_Boeder_1988_Ueber_einige_Anredeformen_imKaukasus.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.staff.uni-oldenburg.de/winfried.boeder/download/52_Boeder_1988_Ueber_einige_Anredeformen_imKaukasus.pdf</a>),
where he mentions similar cases in Lebanese Arabic
described in Ayoub 1964 and Southern Italian dialects by
Spitzer 1928. In both cases, the phenomenon is known
from baby talk, when grown ups try to lower themselves
to the level of children. As a result, a role
substitution happens. Boeder brings Willis 1977 as a
reference, according to which the role substitution is
an important play when children and grown ups
communicate in English baby talk.<br>
<br>
For me, as a native Georgian speaker, the explanation
does not exactly make sense for Georgian. Rather, the
address forms have always been a shortened forms of
affectionate formulas:<br>
<br>
bebia [genacvalos / shemogevlos], modi chemtan!<br>
grandmother [will.secrifice.herself.for.you], come to me</div>
<div>'"X, come to me" (where X is a name of a grandkid)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
I wonder what other native speakers have to say about
the role substitution in Georgian. And I would be
curious to learn whether the mentioned languages or
others illustrating the phenomenon can have the 'role
mirroring' due to shortening of blessing formulas.<br>
<br>
References:<br>
<br>
Ayoub, Millicent R. 1964. Bi-polarity in Arabic kinship
terms. In Horace G. Lunt (ed.). Proceedings of the Ninth
International Congress of Linguists. The Hague: Mouton,
pp. 1100-1106.<br>
<br>
Boeder, Winfried, 1988. Über einige Anredeformen im
Kaukasus. Georgika, Heft 11, pp. 11-20.<br>
<br>
Spitzer, Leo, 1928. Über Personenvertauschung in der
Ammensprache. In L. Spitzer, Stilstudien. Hueber,
München, 1928, pp. 26-38.<br>
<br>
Wills, Dorothy Davis, 1977. Participant deixis in
English baby talk. In: C.E. Snow and Ch. A. Ferguson
(eds.), Talking to Children. Language Input and
Acquisition. Papers from a conference sponsored by the
Committee on Sociolinguistics of the Social Science
Research Council (USA). Cambridge, Cambridge University
Press, pp. 271-295.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Nino</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at
9:26 PM Sergey Loesov <<a href="mailto:sergeloesov@gmail.com" target="_blank">sergeloesov@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear
colleagues,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In
various cultures (those I know of happen to be
mostly
Islamic) the form of address can be copied by the
addressee. Thus, when a
daughter addresses her mother as “Mummy”, the mother
often reciprocates, saying
to the daughter something like “yes, Mummy”, or
“what, Mummy…” (Same of course
with a son and his father.) </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In
particular, I came across this kind of exchange in
my
fieldwork with Kurdish (Kurmanji) and some
contemporary Aramaic varieties in Upper
Mesopotamia and Syria, but this phenomenon is also
current in the Soqotri
language, an unwritten Semitic language spoken on
the Socotra Island in the
Indian Ocean, southeast of Yemen. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Are
we aware of explanations for this kind of usage? Are
there cross-language studies of this kind of facts?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank
you very much!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 8pt;line-height:107%;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sergey</p>
</div>
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</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Dr. Nino Amiridze<br>
<br>
E-mail: <a href="mailto:Nino.Amiridze@gmail.com" target="_blank">Nino.Amiridze@gmail.com</a><br>
WWW: <a href="https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/site/ninoamiridze/</a></div>
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<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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