<div dir="ltr">In Yahgan, causative tu:- prefix (colon marks tenseness of vowel preceding) may be historically related to ata 'take', though it also seems to be closely related to tvx- (v schwa), from da:gu: 'to handle'. A more recent grammaticalization of ata as a suffix has it used as a marker of Aktsionsart, particularly semelfactive, but in some cases it means 'to begin to do'.<div><div><br></div><div>Jess Tauber</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 9:55 AM Paul J Hopper <<a href="mailto:hopper@cmu.edu">hopper@cmu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p>PS My two papers on serialization with 'take' in English are on <a href="http://academia.edu" target="_blank">academia.edu</a>, not <a href="http://academia.com" target="_blank">academia.com</a>. Thank-you to those who pointed out the error.</p>
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__________</p>
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Paul J. Hopper</p>
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Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Humanities</p>
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Department of English</p>
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Carnegie Mellon University</p>
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Pittsburgh PA 15213, USA</p>
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<div id="gmail-m_-5345153161951686721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Anne Tamm <<a href="mailto:TammA@ceu.edu" target="_blank">TammA@ceu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 24, 2020 1:21:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] 'Take' as diachronic source for causative? 'Stand' for ingressive?</font>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Hi,</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Very challenging questions. Maybe looking at analytical causatives helps understand the mechanisms behind the grammaticalization of TAKE as a causative morpheme. </span><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">There
is a book on analytical causatives across languages by Leino and von Waldenfels, </span>
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<span style="margin:0px;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="margin:0px;font-size:14px;color:rgb(77,81,86);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Analytical-causatives-Studies-Language-Typology/dp/3862883620" style="margin:0px" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://www.amazon.com/Analytical-causatives-Studies-Language-Typology/dp/3862883620</span></a></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">In any case, TAKE can be found as a "causativizer" in Estonian analytical causatives, although LET and PUT/SET are more common. GIVE is also used in analytical causatives (in Finnish,
the GIVE analytical causatives are more common, see Leino). Among the Uralic languages, Estonian is an outlier, as there are many analytical causatives and no productive morphological causativization. T</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">he
diachronically motivated morhpeme -ta is still recognized in lexical pairs as in
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i style="font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit">hüppama</i></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
'jump', </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i style="font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit">hüpitama</i></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
'throw something repeatedly up', </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i style="font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit">istuma</i></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
'sit', </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><i style="font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit">istutama</i></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
'plant'. </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Different verbs occur with different causativizers and with different constructions with non-finites. The TAKE type occurs with verbs that denote mental or physical (involuntary) states,
processes or activities, such as think, ponder, shiver, shudder, tremble, cry, weep, etc. But the combination is not lexicalized/grammaticalized, rather the types of event relationships go with different causativizers and nonfinite encoding (GIVE or TAKE are
both ok with 'think', for instance). </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The lexical sense number 5 in the Comprehensive Estonian Dictionary provides some analytical causative examples </span></div>
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<a href="https://www.eki.ee/dict/ekss/index.cgi?Q=v%C3%B5tma&F=M" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://www.eki.ee/dict/ekss/index.cgi?Q=v%C3%B5tma&F=M</span></a><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><u></u></p>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<span><b><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;font-size:12pt">5</span></b></span><b><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;font-size:12pt">.</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS",sans-serif;color:black"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">mingit
seisundit v. tegevust esile kutsuma</span></span></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
</span><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> (= bring about a state or an action)</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><br>
<u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Here are two typical examples, translated from the dictionary:</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Hirm
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>võtt-is värise-ma </b></span><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">fear take-3sg.pst shake-M_INF</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">'I trembled from fear (Fear made me shiver).'</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><br>
<u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Jooks võta-b hingelda-ma/higista-ma</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">running. take-3sg pant/sweat-M_ILL</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">'[this concrete event of] running is making me pant/sweat.'</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><br>
<u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Interestingly, the causer of the TAKE causatives is usually an emotional event
that causes a durative event, an uncontrollable or in any case involuntary, unintended, unplanned reaction. </span><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span><u></u><br>
<u></u></span></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">pilt
on kehv- ju </span><em style="font-size:12pt;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(95,99,104);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">võtt-is</span></b></em><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">
käe </span><em style="font-size:12pt;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-weight:inherit"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(95,99,104);background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">värise-ma</span></b></em><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><br>
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<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">picture is bad probably take-3sg.pst hand.acc shake-M_INF</span><u></u></p>
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<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">'The photo is vague - probably my hand was shaking (something caused my hand to shake).'</span><u></u></p>
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<a href="http://fotoalbum.ee/photos/saba00/22184985" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">http://fotoalbum.ee/photos/saba00/22184985</span></a><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><u></u></p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white">Et siis mõne pagaritoote seest karva leides </span><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(95,99,104);background:white">võta-b
mõtle-ma</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white">?</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><u></u></span></p>
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<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">that then some bakery.item.gen PP hair find_NONFIN take-3sg think-M_INF</span><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">'So you say that it makes you think [all kinds of
things], once you find a hair in your bakery item?'</span><u></u><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><br>
</p>
<u></u>
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<a href="https://www.foorum69.org/viewtopic.php?t=2032" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://www.foorum69.org/viewtopic.php?t=2032</span></a><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><u></u></p>
<br>
<p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="margin:0px;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span style="margin:0px"><u></u><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">The TAKE verb is usually impersonally
used, and the main verb has the illative (to, into) type nonfinite form (supine), as there is a change of state. GIVE and TAKE are in this sense different.
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>GIVE + think</b></span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> and
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>TAK</b></span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:12pt;display:inline"><b>E + think</b></span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-size:12pt;display:inline">
differ in the choice of the nonfinite as well, because of the difference between the causal-temporal relationships of the two events (causing and caused). </span><u></u></span></span><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">GIVE
+ think causatives represent voluntary caused events, moreover, a matter of considerable mental effort.</span></p>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">
<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I am now just brushing up a manuscript in my drawer, so I am interested in
further discussions! </span></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Best,</span></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Anne Tamm</span></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(77,81,86);font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></span></p>
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<span style="margin:0px;font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(77,81,86);background:white"><span style="margin:0px"><u></u><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br>
</span><u></u></span></span></p>
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<div id="gmail-m_-5345153161951686721divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Epps, Patience L <<a href="mailto:pattieepps@austin.utexas.edu" target="_blank">pattieepps@austin.utexas.edu</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 20, 2020 6:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] 'Take' as diachronic source for causative? 'Stand' for ingressive?</font>
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<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">Dear Claudia,
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<div>In Hup, a Naduhup language of NW Amazonia, ‘take’ is the source of the primary/default causativizer in SVCs (among a few other causativizing strategies, also from verbs). For example:</div>
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<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">denícon <span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>tɨh-an <span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>d’oʔ-ʔɔt-ɔh</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">Denilson <span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span>3sg-<span style="font-size:9px;line-height:normal">OBJ <span style="white-space:pre-wrap">
</span></span>take-cry-<span style="font-size:9px;line-height:normal">DECL</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">‘Denilson made him cry!’ </div>
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<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">This is discussed in Ch. 9 of my Hup grammar (Epps 2008, A Grammar of Hup, de Gruyter Mouton), mostly from p.399 and forward (though there I noted the impression that this was not so unusual
typologically - maybe this was incorrect!). </div>
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<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">Please let me know if you’d like more info and I’ll be glad to send it, and thanks for raising this interesting topic.</div>
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<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">All best,</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-size:11px;line-height:normal">Pattie</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Aug 20, 2020, at 5:53 AM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:</div>
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Dear Claudia,</p>
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<span lang="EN-US">A complex pattern of polysemy involving, among many other items, 'take' and causative, is described in Gil (2017) for several languages of Northwest New Guinea, Austronesian and Non-Austronesian.<span> <span> </span></span>A
possible example of partial 'take'/causative coexpression is provided by the isolate language Yawa.<span> <span> </span></span>More commonly, though, the 'take'/causative connection is mediated by 'give', with lots
of languages exhibiting 'take'/'give' coexpression (e.g. Hatam, Meyah, Irarutu), and many other languages in the same region (e.g. Abun, Waropen, Roon) displaying 'give'/causative coexpression.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<span>Gil, David (2017) "Roon ve, DO/GIVE Coexpression, and Language Contact in Northwest New Guinea", in A. Schapper ed.,<span> </span><i>Contact and Substrate in the Languages of Wallacea Part 1</i>,<span> </span><i>NUSA</i><span> </span>62:41-100.
(<a href="http://hdl.handle.net/10108/89844" target="_blank">http://hdl.handle.net/10108/89844</a>)</span></div>
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Best,</p>
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David<br>
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On 18/08/2020 15:06, Claudia Wegener wrote:<br>
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<p>Dear all,<span> </span><br>
</p>
<p>It was suggested to me that grammaticalization of the verb 'take' to a causative marker is typologically unusual, and indeed, apart from the mention of Twi and Nupe (in Kuteva et al. 2019 and sources cited therein) and Fon (Lefebvre 1991) I have
found little to no information on languages where this has happened... Would any of you know any other languages and could point me towards publications I could cite?<span> </span><br>
</p>
<p>And related to this, I have been even less successful at finding languages where the verb for 'to stand' (as posture verb) has been grammaticalized to function as a marker for ingressive - if you know of any, would you be so kind to point me to
any publications?</p>
<p>Many thanks in advance,</p>
<p>Claudia</p>
<p>References:<br>
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<p><span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height:12.84px">Lefebvre, Claire. 1991.<span> </span><i>Take</i><span> </span>serial verb constructions
in Fon. In Claire Lefebvre (ed.),<span> </span><i>Serial Verbs: Grammatical, Comparative</i><span> </span><i>and Cognitive Approaches</i>, 37-78. Amsterdam, Philadelphia: Benjamins.<span> </span><br>
</span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-GB" style="line-height:12.84px">Kuteva, Tania, Bernd Heine, Bo Hong, Haiping Long, Heiko Narrog & Seongha Rhee (eds.). 2019.<span> </span><i>World Lexicon
of Grammaticalization</i>, 2nd edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.</span></p>
<pre cols="72">--
Claudia Wegener
Abteilung Allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
Institut für Linguistik
Universität zu Köln
Albertus-Magnus-Platz
50923 Köln</pre>
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Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
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