<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Thanks everyone,<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Yes, exactly. It is not clear what X0 nor what extraction is. I have a sense actually that when one breaks the argument down into its constituent chain of reasoning it is, in fact, a covert tautology. The "theory" can be summarized as follows</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">1. X0 cannot be extracted (only XP)<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">2. X0 cannot be coordinated (only XP)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">3. We can identify X0s based on some unknown criteria (??)<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Bruening actually admits that (1) is (or could be) a matter of cross-linguistic variation. Furthermore, not all XPs can extract. So the statement makes no predictions anyways. <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">
When <a href="https://babel.ucsc.edu/~hank/105/EndofLexicalism.pdf">Müller</a> challenges him on the claim in (1) with the German example, Bruening states that the fronted <i>gelungen </i>is actually a unary branching VP ([[<i>gelungen</i>]V]VP), and we know this because it <i>can </i>combine with an adverbial phrase <i>so gut</i>. So something that can combine with some other element is <i>ipso facto </i>a candidate XP. Presumably "inflectional" elements should be excluded because otherwise the <i>so gut </i>argument would be unnecessary (which introduces the problem of which elements are inflectional or word-formational and which are not, but nevermind). This is the only definition of an X0 that I have been able to distill and it contradicts the only <a href="https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1467-9612.00026">paper</a> (if you know others, please send!) on how the notion should be defined that I am aware of (although perhaps some hints can be distilled from <a href="https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d0ef/b0dfe900ab0d1089b8fdedc028b9fbad6579.pdf">Chomsky 1995</a>).
In fact, in other generative lit. X0s can be highly complex combinations as in the ezafe structure in Persian (see Ghomeshi 1995 cited in Carnie 2000).
There is no explicit statement of how to identify X0 in Bruening, so I assume it is obvious from other literature, but I'm not having much luck.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Notice, we cannot rely on traditional wordhood diagnostics for identifying X0, because Bruening tells us that X0 is not a word (he cites <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319283295_The_indeterminacy_of_word_segmentation_and_the_nature_of_morphology_and_syntax">your</a> (Haspelmath 2011) paper on why he thinks words are wrong-headed). Assuming that X0 is either a single morpheme or else a root+inflection, then I have to draw the following conclusions<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><b>The problem with the X0-non extractable relation is that all phenomena that look like they could be X0 extraction would be analyzed away as head movement or external merge or even be understood as base generated in the relevant position. <br></b></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><b>The problem for the X0-non coordinability condition is that any candidate X0 coordinate constructions will be analyzed away as co-compounding or natural coordination. </b><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Both these problems seem to render 1 and 2 tautological.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Since the paper was published in our flagship journal and won best paper of the year, I feel I must be missing something here. Please help. <br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">best,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130">Adam<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:#4c1130"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 6:57 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
But what is an "X0" element? We'd have to know this in order to test
Bruening's claim. Note that German "gelungen" is not a single morph
(or "morpheme"). It is a complex form "ge-lung-en".<br>
<br>
There does not seem to be a clear comparative concept "phrase" (vs.
"non-phrasal element") that one could apply in the same way to all
languages.<br>
<br>
Moreover, what exactly is "extraction"? It is fairly clear when we
talk about question-word fronting (or relative-pronoun fronting),
but "topic-fronting" occurs in a wide variety of ways.<br>
<br>
So it seems that, as so often, we need better definitions of
concepts before we can rigorously test universal claims.<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div>Am 26.08.20 um 14:42 schrieb Adam James
Ross Tallman:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Hey all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Just to
clarify, I'm asking because I'm wondering how frequent
apparent counter examples are to <a href="https://babel.ucsc.edu/~hank/105/Bruening_2018.pdf" target="_blank">Bruening</a>'s claim that X0 elements
cannot be extracted.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Adam<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:49
PM Adam James Ross Tallman <<a href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu" target="_blank">ajrtallman@utexas.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">Hello
all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">I
am wondering if anyone has found examples where single
morphemes can extract to first position. It is well-known
that German can do this as in <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)"><i>Gelungen
ist hier selten wem was auf anhieb</i></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">succeeded
is here rarely somebody.DAT something.NOM on first.attempt</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)">'that
it was rarely the case that somebody succeeded in doing
something here on the first attempt'<br clear="all">
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">For some reason the full VP cannot
extract (<i>*Wem gelunden ist hier selten was auf anhieb</i>).
You can modify the fronted verb with an adverb <i>so
gut </i>and apparently its grammatical (Bruening
2018)<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">In Chácobo one can "extract"
individual adverbial elements, but as far as I can tell
only one of these elements can be "extracted" at a time.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><i>tsaya=yama=kɨ</i></div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">see=neg=dec:past</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><i><b>yama</b> tsaya=kɨ</i></div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><b>neg</b> see=dec:past<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">'s/he didn't see it.'</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">I wonder if there are cases like
Chacobo or like German except where the verb cannot be
modified by some element that is also fronted. Just
instances of apparently non-phrasal (word, root or stem)
extraction would also be interesting.</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">p.s. I don't exactly know what
extraction means all the time. In particular I'm not
sure on what basis we can always assume that one
sentence is derived from the other. For instance, in
Chacobo I don't know on what basis I would assume that
the verb is not in fact undergoing rightward extraction.<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">best,<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default">Adam<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace,monospace;color:rgb(76,17,48)" class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman,
serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman,
serif">PhD, University of Texas at Austin<br>
</font>
<div><font face="times new roman, serif">Investigador
del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la
Paz<br>
</font>
<div><font face="times new roman, serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>ELDP
-- </font>Postdoctorante<br>
</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>CNRS
-- </font>Dynamique Du Langage
(UMR 5596)</font></font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam
J.R. Tallman</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">PhD,
University of Texas at Austin<br>
</font>
<div><font face="times new roman, serif">Investigador
del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br>
</font>
<div><font face="times new roman, serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>ELDP -- </font>Postdoctorante<br>
</font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>CNRS
-- </font>Dynamique Du Langage (UMR
5596)</font></font><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath (<a href="mailto:haspelmath@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">haspelmath@shh.mpg.de</a>)
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
&
Leipzig University
Institut fuer Anglistik
IPF 141199
D-04081 Leipzig</pre>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="times new roman, serif">PhD, University of Texas at Austin<br></font><div><font face="times new roman, serif">Investigador del Museo de Etnografía y Folklore, la Paz<br></font><div><font face="times new roman, serif"><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>ELDP -- </font>Postdoctorante<br></font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font>CNRS -- </font>Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)</font></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>