<div dir="ltr">Dear Florian,<div>Following up on Misha's remark, there are indeed many East Caucasian languages with consonant length but no vowel length. More interestingly, they cluster areally, being found most clearly in the Eastern part of the map (Lezgian, Agul, Tabasaran, Lak, Southern Dargwa), while languages with a balanced mix of consonant and vowel length are found only in the West (Chechen, some Andic languages).</div><div>Best</div><div>GA</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 6:43 PM Pier Marco Bertinetto <<a href="mailto:piermarco.bertinetto@sns.it">piermarco.bertinetto@sns.it</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Florian,</div><div>the question I would ask myself is the following: Since we know that vowel and consonant quantity are independent of each other (they can coexist, or one can have phonological value and the other, possibly, a mere allophonically conditioned behavior), does it make sense to look for an "implicational tendency"? <br></div><div><div>Unless one can prove that the existence of consonant quantity presupposes vowel quantity, I would leave out any "implicational" reasoning.<br></div>Needless to say, it might be interesting to know, say, that there are more languages with vowel quantity than languages with consonant quantity, but would this teach us anything more than a mere statistical fact? <br></div><div>Best<br></div><div>Pier Marco<br></div><div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno dom 20 dic 2020 alle ore 18:17 Hartmut Haberland <<a href="mailto:hartmut@ruc.dk" target="_blank">hartmut@ruc.dk</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div dir="ltr">Apparent counterexamples seem to be Italian (no vowel length) and maybe Japanese (long vowels in Sinojapanese vocabulary like sū ‘number’ seem to be genuine but in suu ‘sucks, inhales’ with a morpheme border it is often considered u+u. Both languages
have long/double consonants. </div>
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<blockquote type="cite">Den 20. dec. 2020 kl. 17.49 skrev Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
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<div>ps Sorry, i shouldn't have sent it to the general list. I am aware that individual cases do not undermine the general correlation. But because Florian also asked for language-level evidence, I provided (my understanding of) the data I know of.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Michael Daniel<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вс, 20 дек. 2020 г., 19:25 Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
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<div dir="auto">Dear Florian,
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<div dir="auto">i guess this depends on how to define consonant length, and what to count as presence of vowel quantity contrast. In East Caucasian, many languages distinguish between geminate vs simple, alias strong vs weak, alias fortis vs lenis, alias non-aspirated
vs aspirated stops. </div>
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<div dir="auto">At the same time, vowel length, if present at all, is much less central to the system, though this varies across languages. I'm afraid, in order to fully assess the force of this implication, you should somehow account also for the role of the
two contrasts in the language.</div>
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<div dir="auto">As one example, there is an important contrast between fortis and lenis stops in Archi, Lezgic. Vowel length is also present, but is used in expressive elements such as distance demonstratives; secondarily as compensation for the loss of the
intervocalic -q- in one (of several hundred) of verbal forms; in some morphophonological contexts with the coordinative clitic; and maybe in one or two other forms that do not quickly come to my mind.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Sincerely,</div>
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<div dir="auto">Michael</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вс, 20 дек. 2020 г., 19:13 <<a href="mailto:florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">florian.matter@isw.unibe.ch</a>>:<br>
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Dear all,</div>
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is anybody aware of large-scale studies investigating the distribution of contrastive length in consonants and vowels? Preliminary analysis of phoible data tells me that there is an implicational tendency where if a language has contrastive length in consonants,
it also has it in vowels. Are there studies supporting this? I’m also interested in literature on the geographical and genealogical distribution of contrastive length.</div>
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Best,</div>
<div id="gmail-m_-5280089879191937008gmail-m_2890685677241693459m_9141122192973065989m_-3340464963228812643bloop_customfont" style="margin:0px">
Florian</div>
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<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">_____________________________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Universität Bern<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Institut für Sprachwissenschaft</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Florian Matter </span></p>
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<p style="font-family:Helvetica;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Monaco,serif">Tel. +41 31 631 37 54<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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=========================================================
editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"<br> webpage <<a href="https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco" target="_blank">https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco</a>>
"Laboratorio di Linguistica" <<a href="http://linguistica.sns.it" target="_blank">http://linguistica.sns.it</a>>
=========================================================</pre>
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