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<div dir="auto">Indeed, the only barrier will be the realistic limitations of my time and effort. In an ideal world I could sample all the languages spoken all over the world. But since there are 34 sample languages and (provisionally) 50 features, I will have
to verify if a feature exists in each language 1700 times. That’s already a lot to do for a thesis. Since there’s no real “movement barrier” in Eurasia, unless I investigate the entire Eurasian continent, I have to choose an arbitrary geographical window at
some point, and a window of reasonable size for me seems to be East Asia.</div>
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Regards,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
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<div name="messageReplySection">On 5 Jan 2021, 12:10 AM +0800, PAKENDORF Brigitte <Brigitte.PAKENDORF@cnrs.fr>, wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Ian,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">that sounds like a radical change of direction, indeed !</span>
<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" xml:lang="EN-GB">
But why are you excluding North and Southeast Asia from your bottom-up approach ? There are no barriers to movements of peoples or languages that would justify this, are there?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" xml:lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US" xml:lang="EN-GB">Brigitte</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">De :</span></b>
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Lingtyp [mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org]
<b>De la part de</b> JOO, Ian [Student]<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> lundi 4 janvier 2021 16:07<br>
<b>À :</b> LINGTYP <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<br>
<br>
first, I apologize if I’m spamming everyone with my personal research. But this is just a response to some of those who have provided me helpful feedback.<br>
As some have rightfully pointed out the problems of my top-down approach, I decided to take their advice and radically change the direction of my research into a bottom-up approach. In other words, other than hypothesizing that there is a linguistic area called
Mainland/Inner/Central/whatever Northeast Asia and then looking for features that would justify that area, I decided to agnostically collect linguistic features from the sample languages of a macroarea and then use that data to see if there are any subareas
within that macroarea. And that macroarea will be East Asia (not including North Asia or Southeast Aisa). I have selected 34 convenience sample languages spoken in East Asia (see below). (Note that some language names are simplified for visual convenience,
for example just “Hmong” for Dananshan Hmong.)<br>
<br>
<image001.png><br>
<br>
So the idea is to first gather, say, 50-100 linguistic features, test whether each language has that feature, and then use that data to see if certain feature is dominant in certain geographical zones within East Asia (for example Northwest China). Only after
that would it be safe to claim a linguistic area.<br>
I would like to express my gratitude to all the helpful feedback that drastically changed the direction of my future research. Also I would appreciate it if you could have a look at the sample languages above to see if I should add any sample languages to balance
the geography or geneology of the sample.</p>
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Regards,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ian</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 4 Jan 2021, 7:47 PM +0800, JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>>, wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Andi,<br>
<br>
Vladimir Panov in his recent paper "<a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2019-2032" target="_blank">Final particles in Asia: Establishing an areal feature</a>” discusses the definition of an areal feature.<br>
His idea is that even if a given feature found not only in a given area but in other parts of the world as well, that doesn’t necessarily rule out that that feature is not areal. If that feature is not found in areas surrounding that area, then that qualifies
as an areal feature too.<br>
I would like to take an example from Mainland Southeast Asia: Tones. Of course, tones are not unique to Mainland Southeast Asia. It’s even prevalent in its neighboring regions like Northeast Asia. But no one would deny that tones are a linguistic feature of
MSEA precisely because it’s uncommon in areas surrounding it (insular Southeast Asia and South Asia). Thus we cannot say that “because tones are common in other parts of the world, it can’t be an areal feature of MSEA.” Sure, it can’t be a <strong>unique</strong> feature
of MSEA, but it’s its areal feature nevertheless. This is how I view areality.<br>
You’re right about the methodological issue that the bottom-up approach would be good as well. But for the moment I would like to try a top-down methodology. And thanks for the reading suggestions!</p>
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Regards,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ian</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 4 Jan 2021, 7:33 PM +0800, <a href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de">
hoelzlandreas@web.de</a> <<a href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de">hoelzlandreas@web.de</a>>, wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear Ian,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">A more salient feature of the area, such as a geographical name, would perhaps be more convincing than the name of a plant.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Concerning the features you listed:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">> The colexification between NORTH and REAR (as previously discussed);</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">This is indeed interesting. The same can be found in Oroqen (Tungusic), etc. I am not sure how old this feature is, but it cannot be found in varieties of Jurchen, the predecessor
or close relative of Manchu which you had on your map.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">The other features you listed do not seem to define any area in Northeast Asia but can be found throughout Eurasia or the world. I would advice having another look at the typological
literature (e.g., on differential object marking), literature on "Altaic/Transeurasian" (Martine Robbeets has a paper on passive/causative isomorphism), and the features in WALS (e.g., Holger Diessel's map on demonstratives:
<a href="https://wals.info/feature/42A#2/23.2/152.6">https://wals.info/feature/42A#2/23.2/152.6</a>).</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Methodologically, it might be a good idea to find a set of features first and then think about a name of the "linguistic area" you may have found.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Best,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Andi</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> Montag, 04. Januar 2021 um 11:10 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "JOO, Ian [Student]" <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "LINGTYP" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear Andi, dear all,<br>
<br>
thank you Andi, for pointing that out.<br>
It seems that some are concerned with the terms “inner” and “outer” because it may have some connotation as a value judgement (more important v. less important). So this needs to be fixed.<br>
I appreciate your suggestion of the terms “central” and “peripheral” but to me, the word “peripheral” seems equally risky in terms of value judgement connotation: The Cambridge dictionary defines “peripheral” as "Something that is peripheral is not as important
as something else”.<br>
I will think of several other options such as “Micro/Macro”, “Narrow/Wide”, “Small/Big”, etc. All other suggestions are welcome.<br>
(Or perhaps I will have to go with my previously suggested name “Astragalia”, if necessary.)<br>
<br>
As for Andi’s comment why we need this areal classification in the first place, well that’s what my doctoral research is trying to justify, and I already have several linguistic features that are found in this area but generally not in the surrounding areas,
such as:</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">The colexification between NORTH and REAR (as previously discussed);</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Isomorphic pronoun/determiner alternation of demonstratives (such as English “<strong><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">This </span></strong>is a book”/“<strong><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">This </span></strong>book”);</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">The presence of velar nasal only at the coda position;</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Monomorphemic 1PL pronouns;</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Isomorphimic passive/causative alternation (e. g. Mandarin <em><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">ràng</span></em>);</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Differential Object Marking by marked v. unmarked accusatives;</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">The presence of falling diphthongs.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Hopefully I will continue to find out more during my doctoral years. I hope this helps and any comments are of course welcome. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"><br>
Regards,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Ian</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">On 4 Jan 2021, 5:40 PM +0800,
<a href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de">hoelzlandreas@web.de</a> <<a href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de">hoelzlandreas@web.de</a>>, wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear all,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Johanna is correct in pointing out Janhunen's book. Manchuria is certainly a problematic term due to its association with Manchukuo, but it is still employed in academic literature
outside of China where the term dōngběi </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif">东北</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> 'Northeast' is used instead. But it seems to me that the area
under investigation here is slightly different from what is usually referred to as Manchuria. The blue area excludes those parts of Manchuria that since 1858/60 became part of Russia (Primorye region, Sakhalin, etc.) but includes large parts of Northern China
and Mongolia. As for Northeast Asia, there is also a very different definition by Chard, Janhunen, myself, and ohters that is much broader and also includes Northern Asia. Janhunen refers to this as "wider" Northeast Asia:</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">"In the widest sense, Northeast Asia as a geographical and ethnohistorical region can be defined as the entire northeastern part of the Eurasian continent, delimited by the
Yenisei in the west and the Yellow River in the south. In the northeast, the region extends, in principle, to the Bering Strait. In a somewhat narrower framework, Northeast Asia may be defined as comprising the territory between the Amur and Yellow River basins,
including the Korean Peninsula and the Japanese Islands in the Pacific coastal zone, but excluding the northeasternmost limits of what is today the Russian Far East." (Janhunen 2010)</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">What Janhunen calls "narrow" Northeast Asia is close to the area you are interested in but includes Japan and other parts of "Pacific Northeast Asia" as Zgusta calls it.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">I would also avoid using "inner" and "outer", which might have unwanted connotations of being included and excluded, etc. Concerning "boreal" and "austral" proposed by Dan Slobin,
I agree that the terms would be more neutral. But if I understood you correctly, "Outer Northeast Asia" would be the surrounding area on all sides and not only to the South. In this case, "central" and "peripheral" might be more adequate. But some parts on
your map are also part of peripheral Mainland Southeast Asia as was pointed out by Hilário de Sousa.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">The main question would be, of course, why you need a term for this area in the first place.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Best,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Andi</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> Sonntag, 03. Januar 2021 um 23:44 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Bohnemeyer, Juergen" <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
<b>An:</b> "Johanna Nichols" <<a href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu">johanna@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "LINGTYP" <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] New name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">“Manchuria” strikes me politically/historically fraught due to its association with Manchukuo. But, I’m about as far from being an expert on this region as a typologist can
be, so what do I know! — Best — Juergen<br>
<br>
> On Jan 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Johanna Nichols <<a href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu">johanna@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Janhunen 1996 uses the term Manchuria for this area and covers its ethnohistory and linguistic history so comprehensively that I consider it a precedent for using that term.<br>
><br>
> Janhunen, Juha. Manchuria: An ethnic history. Helsinki: Suomalais-Ugrilainen Seura, 1996.<br>
><br>
> Johanna<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 12:11 PM Dan I. SLOBIN <<a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu">slobin@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
> "Inner" and "outer" convey an implicit hierarchy: some are in and some are out; some are central and some are peripheral.<br>
> I suggest a simple, objective solution, avoiding the repetition of names of compass directions, and avoiding what may<br>
> be seen as value judgments: Boreal Northeast Asia and Austral Southeast Asia -- i.e., North and South, using Latin terms.<br>
> I don't think these terms are opaque: "Boreal" will, for some people, evoke "Aurora Borealis," the Northern Lights;<br>
> "Austral" will evoke southerly geography, as in Austronesia and Australia.<br>
><br>
> Dan Slobin<br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:28 AM JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>> wrote:<br>
> Dear all,<br>
><br>
> (I’m sorry if no one cares, but just for the update)<br>
> Although no one suggested any alternatives, I gave it a thought and changed the terms “Mainland Northeast Asia” to “Inner Northeast Asia” (as opposed to “Outer Northeast Asia”, i. e. the rest of Northeast Asia).<br>
> Below is a visualized map of Inner and Outher Northeast Asia.<br>
><br>
> <Attachment.tiff><br>
><br>
> From Hong Kong,<br>
> Ian<br>
> On 31 Dec 2020, 6:13 PM +0800, JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>>, wrote:<br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> In my doctoral research, I refer to the lingistic area consisting of Korea, Mongolia, and Northeast China (but not Japan or Russian Far East) as "Mainland Northeast Asia."<br>
>> But this name is problematic, since Siberia is just as continental (part of "mainland") as well, and I don't intend to include Siberia.<br>
>> Because of this, I have been thinking of a better name for this area.<br>
>> The best one I can think of is Astragalia, from the name of the herb astragalus, which is native to Korea, Northeast China, Mongolia, and Southern Siberia.<br>
>> The downside of this fancy name is that, upon hearing it, whoever not familiar with herbalism will have no idea where it points to, without further explanation.<br>
>> Are there any other name candidates you can think of? If so, I would welcome all suggestions.<br>
>><br>
>> From Hong Kong,<br>
>> Ian<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Disclaimer:<br>
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> --<br>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><br>
> Dan I. Slobin<br>
> Professor Emeritus of Psychology and Linguistics<br>
> University of California, Berkeley<br>
> email: <a href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu">slobin@berkeley.edu</a><br>
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Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo<br>
<br>
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