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It seems that the problem of identifying areal phenomena in an
objective way is a really hard one. It is indeed very easy to be
misled by appearances.<br>
<br>
I remember a talk by Östen Dahl around 2003 when he presented a
WALS-like map with two feature values and asked the audience to look
for areal patterns – of which there was no shortage (low-level
ones). Then came the surprise: The map that he presented was
generated by a random process.<br>
<br>
Back in 1998/2001, I identified a number of "<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://zenodo.org/record/1236769">Standard
Average European</a>" areal features, but I didn't try to make
sure that these were not random coincidences. Out of thousands of
possible areal features, 12-15 that cluster in Europe is perhaps not
all that much. It seems that we would need to start in a radically
bottom-up manner, using a representative set of features, and
examine them all for a large number of languages. (Ian Joo seems to
be planning something of this sort.)<br>
<br>
But what is a "representative set of grammatical features"? Nobody
seems to have an idea of how to achieve objective
representativeness.<br>
<br>
The only quantitative approach to the problem that I have come
across is this paper:<br>
<br>
<div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left:
2em; text-indent:-2em;">
<div class="csl-entry">Daumé III, Hal. 2009. Non-Parametric
Bayesian Areal Linguistics. <i>arXiv:0906.5114 [cs]</i>. (<a
href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.5114">http://arxiv.org/abs/0906.5114</a>)<br>
</div>
<span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Non-Parametric%20Bayesian%20Areal%20Linguistics&rft.jtitle=arXiv%3A0906.5114%20%5Bcs%5D&rft.aufirst=Hal&rft.aulast=Daum%C3%A9%20III&rft.au=Hal%20Daum%C3%A9%20III&rft.date=2009-06-27"></span></div>
<br>
Best wishes, and Happy New Year,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 04.01.21 um 16:07 schrieb JOO, Ian
[Student]:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:d6618e09-93f8-44f6-b632-a5aa140f92ba@Spark">
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<div dir="auto">Dear all,<br>
<br>
first, I apologize if I’m spamming everyone with my personal
research. But this is just a response to some of those who
have provided me helpful feedback.<br>
As some have rightfully pointed out the problems of my
top-down approach, I decided to take their advice and
radically change the direction of my research into a bottom-up
approach. In other words, other than hypothesizing that there
is a linguistic area called Mainland/Inner/Central/whatever
Northeast Asia and then looking for features that would
justify that area, I decided to agnostically collect
linguistic features from the sample languages of a macroarea
and then use that data to see if there are any subareas within
that macroarea. And that macroarea will be East Asia (not
including North Asia or Southeast Aisa). I have selected 34
convenience sample languages spoken in East Asia (see below).
(Note that some language names are simplified for visual
convenience, for example just “Hmong” for Dananshan Hmong.)<br>
<br>
<img style="max-width:100%;height:auto"
src="cid:1AC04C88423640C4A6DA54CF8019BFC9"
moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
<br>
So the idea is to first gather, say, 50-100 linguistic
features, test whether each language has that feature, and
then use that data to see if certain feature is dominant in
certain geographical zones within East Asia (for example
Northwest China). Only after that would it be safe to claim a
linguistic area.<br>
I would like to express my gratitude to all the helpful
feedback that drastically changed the direction of my future
research. Also I would appreciate it if you could have a look
at the sample languages above to see if I should add any
sample languages to balance the geography or geneology of the
sample.</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection"><br>
Regards,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
<div name="messageReplySection">On 4 Jan 2021, 7:47 PM +0800, JOO,
Ian [Student] <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>, wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto">Dear Andi,<br>
<br>
Vladimir Panov in his recent paper "<a
href="https://doi.org/10.1515/lingty-2019-2032"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Final particles
in Asia: Establishing an areal feature</a>” discusses
the definition of an areal feature.<br>
His idea is that even if a given feature found not only in
a given area but in other parts of the world as well, that
doesn’t necessarily rule out that that feature is not
areal. If that feature is not found in areas surrounding
that area, then that qualifies as an areal feature too.<br>
I would like to take an example from Mainland Southeast
Asia: Tones. Of course, tones are not unique to Mainland
Southeast Asia. It’s even prevalent in its neighboring
regions like Northeast Asia. But no one would deny that
tones are a linguistic feature of MSEA precisely because
it’s uncommon in areas surrounding it (insular Southeast
Asia and South Asia). Thus we cannot say that “because
tones are common in other parts of the world, it can’t be
an areal feature of MSEA.” Sure, it can’t be a <strong>unique</strong> feature
of MSEA, but it’s its areal feature nevertheless. This is
how I view areality.<br>
You’re right about the methodological issue that the
bottom-up approach would be good as well. But for the
moment I would like to try a top-down methodology. And
thanks for the reading suggestions!</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection"><br>
Regards,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
<div name="messageReplySection">On 4 Jan 2021, 7:33 PM +0800,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de">hoelzlandreas@web.de</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de"><hoelzlandreas@web.de></a>, wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="border-left-color: grey;
border-left-width: thin; border-left-style: solid; margin:
5px 5px;padding-left: 10px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;">
<div>Dear Ian,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>A more salient feature of the area, such as a
geographical name, would perhaps be more convincing
than the name of a plant.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Concerning the features you listed:</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>> The colexification between NORTH and REAR
(as previously discussed);</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This is indeed interesting. The same can be found
in Oroqen (Tungusic), etc. I am not sure how old
this feature is, but it cannot be found in varieties
of Jurchen, the predecessor or close relative of
Manchu which you had on your map.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The other features you listed do not seem to
define any area in Northeast Asia but can be found
throughout Eurasia or the world. I would advice
having another look at the typological literature
(e.g., on differential object marking), literature
on "Altaic/Transeurasian" (Martine Robbeets has a
paper on passive/causative isomorphism), and
the features in WALS (e.g., Holger Diessel's map on
demonstratives:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wals.info/feature/42A#2/23.2/152.6">https://wals.info/feature/42A#2/23.2/152.6</a>).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Methodologically, it might be a good idea to find
a set of features first and then think about a name
of the "linguistic area" you may have found.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Andi</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div name="quote" style="margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;
padding: 10px 0 10px 10px; border-left:2px solid
#C3D9E5; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
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<div style="margin:0 0 10px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag,
04. Januar 2021 um 11:10 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "JOO, Ian [Student]"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "LINGTYP"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] New name for
"Mainland Northeast Asia"</div>
<div name="quoted-content">
<div>
<div>Dear Andi, dear all,<br>
<br>
thank you Andi, for pointing that out.<br>
It seems that some are concerned with the
terms “inner” and “outer” because it may
have some connotation as a value judgement
(more important v. less important). So this
needs to be fixed.<br>
I appreciate your suggestion of the terms
“central” and “peripheral” but to me, the
word “peripheral” seems equally risky in
terms of value judgement connotation: The
Cambridge dictionary defines “peripheral” as
"Something that is peripheral is not as
important as something else”.<br>
I will think of several other options such
as “Micro/Macro”, “Narrow/Wide”,
“Small/Big”, etc. All other suggestions are
welcome.<br>
(Or perhaps I will have to go with my
previously suggested name “Astragalia”, if
necessary.)<br>
<br>
As for Andi’s comment why we need this areal
classification in the first place, well
that’s what my doctoral research is trying
to justify, and I already have several
linguistic features that are found in this
area but generally not in the surrounding
areas, such as:</div>
<ol type="1">
<li>The colexification between NORTH and
REAR (as previously discussed);</li>
<li>Isomorphic pronoun/determiner
alternation of demonstratives (such as
English “<strong>This </strong>is a
book”/“<strong>This </strong>book”);</li>
<li>The presence of velar nasal only at the
coda position;</li>
<li>Monomorphemic 1PL pronouns;</li>
<li>Isomorphimic passive/causative
alternation (e. g. Mandarin <em>ràng</em>);</li>
<li>Differential Object Marking by marked v.
unmarked accusatives;</li>
<li>The presence of falling diphthongs.</li>
</ol>
<div>Hopefully I will continue to find out
more during my doctoral years. I hope this
helps and any comments are of course
welcome. </div>
</div>
<div><br>
Regards,
<div>Ian</div>
</div>
<div>On 4 Jan 2021, 5:40 PM +0800,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de">hoelzlandreas@web.de</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hoelzlandreas@web.de"><hoelzlandreas@web.de></a>, wrote:
<blockquote style="border-left-color:
grey;border-left-width:
thin;border-left-style: solid;margin: 5.0px
5.0px;padding-left: 10.0px;">
<div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size:
12.0px;">
<div>Dear all,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Johanna is correct in pointing out
Janhunen's book. Manchuria is certainly
a problematic term due to its
association with Manchukuo, but it is
still employed in academic literature
outside of China where the term
dōngběi 东北 'Northeast' is used instead.
But it seems to me that the area under
investigation here is slightly different
from what is usually referred to as
Manchuria. The blue area excludes those
parts of Manchuria that since 1858/60
became part of Russia (Primorye region,
Sakhalin, etc.) but includes large parts
of Northern China and Mongolia. As for
Northeast Asia, there is also a very
different definition by Chard, Janhunen,
myself, and ohters that is much broader
and also includes Northern Asia.
Janhunen refers to this as "wider"
Northeast Asia:</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>"In the widest sense, Northeast
Asia as a geographical and
ethnohistorical region can be defined
as the entire northeastern part of the
Eurasian continent, delimited by the
Yenisei in the west and the Yellow
River in the south. In the northeast,
the region extends, in principle, to
the Bering Strait. In a somewhat
narrower framework, Northeast Asia may
be defined as comprising the territory
between the Amur and Yellow River
basins, including the Korean Peninsula
and the Japanese Islands in the
Pacific coastal zone, but excluding
the northeasternmost limits of what is
today the Russian Far East." (Janhunen
2010)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What Janhunen calls "narrow"
Northeast Asia is close to the area
you are interested in but includes
Japan and other parts of "Pacific
Northeast Asia" as Zgusta calls it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I would also avoid using "inner"
and "outer", which might have unwanted
connotations of being included and
excluded, etc. Concerning "boreal" and
"austral" proposed by Dan Slobin, I
agree that the terms would be more
neutral. But if I understood you
correctly, "Outer Northeast Asia"
would be the surrounding area on all
sides and not only to the South. In
this case, "central" and "peripheral"
might be more adequate. But some parts
on your map are also part
of peripheral Mainland Southeast Asia
as was pointed out by Hilário de
Sousa.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The main question would be, of
course, why you need a term for this
area in the first place.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Andi</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 10.0px 5.0px 5.0px
10.0px;padding: 10.0px 0 10.0px
10.0px;border-left: 2.0px solid
rgb(195,217,229);">
<div style="margin: 0 0 10.0px 0;"><b>Gesendet:</b> Sonntag,
03. Januar 2021 um 23:44 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b> "Bohnemeyer, Juergen"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><jb77@buffalo.edu></a><br>
<b>An:</b> "Johanna Nichols"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu"><johanna@berkeley.edu></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> "LINGTYP"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] New
name for "Mainland Northeast Asia"</div>
<div>“Manchuria” strikes me
politically/historically fraught
due to its association with
Manchukuo. But, I’m about as far
from being an expert on this
region as a typologist can be, so
what do I know! — Best — Juergen<br>
<br>
> On Jan 3, 2021, at 4:10 PM,
Johanna Nichols
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu"><johanna@berkeley.edu></a>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Janhunen 1996 uses the term
Manchuria for this area and covers
its ethnohistory and linguistic
history so comprehensively that I
consider it a precedent for using
that term.<br>
><br>
> Janhunen, Juha. Manchuria: An
ethnic history. Helsinki:
Suomalais-Ugrilainen Seura, 1996.<br>
><br>
> Johanna<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 12:11
PM Dan I. SLOBIN
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slobin@berkeley.edu"><slobin@berkeley.edu></a> wrote:<br>
> "Inner" and "outer" convey an
implicit hierarchy: some are in
and some are out; some are central
and some are peripheral.<br>
> I suggest a simple, objective
solution, avoiding the repetition
of names of compass directions,
and avoiding what may<br>
> be seen as value judgments:
Boreal Northeast Asia and Austral
Southeast Asia -- i.e., North and
South, using Latin terms.<br>
> I don't think these terms are
opaque: "Boreal" will, for some
people, evoke "Aurora Borealis,"
the Northern Lights;<br>
> "Austral" will evoke
southerly geography, as in
Austronesia and Australia.<br>
><br>
> Dan Slobin<br>
><br>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2021 at 3:28
AM JOO, Ian [Student]
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>
wrote:<br>
> Dear all,<br>
><br>
> (I’m sorry if no one cares,
but just for the update)<br>
> Although no one suggested any
alternatives, I gave it a thought
and changed the terms “Mainland
Northeast Asia” to “Inner
Northeast Asia” (as opposed to
“Outer Northeast Asia”, i. e. the
rest of Northeast Asia).<br>
> Below is a visualized map of
Inner and Outher Northeast Asia.<br>
><br>
> <Attachment.tiff><br>
><br>
> From Hong Kong,<br>
> Ian<br>
> On 31 Dec 2020, 6:13 PM
+0800, JOO, Ian [Student]
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></a>,
wrote:<br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> In my doctoral research,
I refer to the lingistic area
consisting of Korea, Mongolia, and
Northeast China (but not Japan or
Russian Far East) as "Mainland
Northeast Asia."<br>
>> But this name is
problematic, since Siberia is just
as continental (part of
"mainland") as well, and I don't
intend to include Siberia.<br>
>> Because of this, I have
been thinking of a better name for
this area.<br>
>> The best one I can think
of is Astragalia, from the name of
the herb astragalus, which is
native to Korea, Northeast China,
Mongolia, and Southern Siberia.<br>
>> The downside of this
fancy name is that, upon hearing
it, whoever not familiar with
herbalism will have no idea where
it points to, without further
explanation.<br>
>> Are there any other name
candidates you can think of? If
so, I would welcome all
suggestions.<br>
>><br>
>> From Hong Kong,<br>
>> Ian<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
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the University accepts no liability whatsoever for any
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522">https://www.shh.mpg.de/employees/42385/25522</a></pre>
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