<div dir="ltr">Yes, thanks Ryan. I wrote the same to Laura Arnold earlier today, feeling terrible that I had forgotten about it! It's a great case, quite compelling!</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 9:50 AM Ryan Sullivant <<a href="mailto:iamsullivant@gmail.com">iamsullivant@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Another case of
/H, M, Ø/ is Eric Campbell's analysis of Zenzontepec Chatino (<a href="https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/26021" target="_blank">https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/26021</a>). /M/ is realized as [M] in many contexts and [L] in others. /Ø/ is realized as a mid tone or a falling tone in most contexts, and as [H] when a preceding /H/ spreads into it.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 11:09 AM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Tonal inventories: High vs Extra-High (ARNOLD Laura)<br>
2. Re: Tonal inventories: High vs Extra-High (Larry M. HYMAN)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 17:18:22 +0000<br>
From: ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
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Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Tonal inventories: High vs Extra-High<br>
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Thank you all for the helpful discussion!<br>
<br>
I realise I phrased the original question poorly. I’m not so much interested in the labels – we can call the two tones whatever we want – I’m more interested in the relation of the two tones with reference to non-tonal units.<br>
<br>
So, in languages that contrast two level tones (let’s call them X and Y) and toneless units, I’m interested in cases where X and Y are phonologically specified to be realised with a higher F0 than toneless units (i.e., toneless < X < Y). For that matter, I’d also be interested to hear about cases where the two tones are lower than toneless units (i.e., X < Y < toneless). I may be wrong, but it’s my impression that these two distributions are less common than the more frequent X < toneless < Y.<br>
<br>
Many thanks again,<br>
Laura<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Larry M. HYMAN <<a href="mailto:hyman@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">hyman@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
Sent: 27 January 2021 16:47<br>
To: ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Tonal inventories: High vs Extra-High<br>
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There are at least three problems in this discussion.<br>
<br>
First, there is the problem of whether we are talking phonetics or phonology.<br>
<br>
Second, there is the problem of whether the labeling of tones can be uniquely derived from the phonetics, continuous F0 alone (as we can identify vowels from the acoustic vowel space).<br>
As Mark Donohue once put it to me, "We don't hear tones. We hear pitch." (and anything co-varying with the pitch: duration, other laryngeal activity etc.)<br>
<br>
Third, there's the sometimes arbitrary labeling of tones.<br>
<br>
I agree that in some languages the pitch of the highest tone sounds higher than in others (and sometimes also individuals speaking the same language). It also is the case that in some languages the lowest tone is at rock bottom (trailing off especially before pause), while in others, the lowest tone has a level "middish" F0.<br>
<br>
In many cases, the languages where terms like "superhigh" or "extrahigh" are invoked not only have some very high pitch realizations, but often ones that are derived. For example, in Elaine Thomas' analysis of Engenni (Edoid, Nigeria), a H tone is raised to what she calls "top" tone (=superhigh) when followed by a L tone (and in certain morphological contexts). Since the L sometimes is not realized, this creates a system of with a "superhigh", "high", and "low" pitch contrast which then has to be interpreted. (I have proposed that the "high" tone is really phonologically Ø, such that the system starts out as a /L/ vs. Ø one, but develops into a three-height system, S, H and L.) There are other languages where the highest tone is derived from the simplification of a H + downstepped H sequence (or contour on the same vowel/syllable), and others reported where H tone is realized as "superhigh" on high vowels.<br>
<br>
In my dissertation on Fe'fe' dialect of Bamileke (Grassfields Bantu, Cameroon), the general non-low tone was called M, even though there are rules raising it (and even L) to H, e.g. in most noun classes, where a M + M noun + noun in a genitive relation (N1 of N2) is realized H + M. I certainly could have called the M a high tone, and called the H tone as superhigh tone. The reason I didn't do this is that I didn't feel that the H was any higher than I would expect in a H, M, L system like Yoruba, Nupe etc.<br>
<br>
Mid tone languages are also different from each other. In some the /M/ is there underlyingly, in others it is interpreted as the realization of Ø, and in still other languages it is derived. (I'm now remembering that I once gave a minicourse just on the mid tone--in Leipzig in 2006 :-)!<br>
<br>
I don't think labeling is as crucial as the characterization of the tonal system itself, the relation between the tones, the phonetic implementation etc. Maybe someone will come up with an objective way to go from pitch to tone category, but so far it isn't automatic (or agreed upon by different researchers).<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:06 AM ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>>> wrote:<br>
Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
Does anyone know how frequent two-tone inventories contrasting only High and Extra-High are? I’m working with data from a language which has an inventory that can possibly be analysed this way (the two tones also contrast with toneless syllables). I suspect this is quite an unusual inventory, cross-linguistically – it would be helpful to confirm this. I would also be interested to hear about similar examples elsewhere in the world.<br>
<br>
Many thanks,<br>
Laura<br>
<br>
~~~<br>
Laura Arnold – British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow<br>
<a href="http://laura-arnold.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">laura-arnold.org</a><<a href="https://www.laura-arnold.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.laura-arnold.org/</a>><br>
<br>
Room 1.13, Dugald Stewart Building<br>
School of Philosophy, Psychology & Language Sciences<br>
University of Edinburgh<br>
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The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.<br>
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Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund<br>
Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley<br>
<a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 09:34:20 -0800<br>
From: "Larry M. HYMAN" <<a href="mailto:hyman@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">hyman@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
To: ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Tonal inventories: High vs Extra-High<br>
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<br>
Hi Laura,<br>
<br>
I don't know how many readers are interested in tones, but to be more<br>
concrete, if I now understand what you are asking, the following systems<br>
have been proposed:<br>
<br>
/H, L, Ø/ = common (see below)<br>
/H, M, Ø/ = less common (Mary Paster proposed this for Leggbo, the only<br>
case I know): Ø is realized L.<br>
/M, L, Ø/ = unattested? (I don't know of any language that has been<br>
analyzed that way)<br>
/S, H, Ø/ = you are proposing? I don't see why this couldn't exist<br>
/S, L, Ø/ = ?<br>
etc.<br>
<br>
Now, the question is how Ø is realized in /H, L, Ø/ systems. There are /H,<br>
L, Ø/ analyses where Ø has a phonological behavior distinct from /H/ and<br>
/L/, but ultimately is assigned [H] or [L] vs. those where Ø is realized on<br>
a distinct, third phonetic pitch height, e.g. [M]. I think you are only<br>
interested in these latter. For other /S, H, Ø/ systems, I suspect Punu<br>
(Bantu; Gabon), but again, a lot depends on interpretation, e.g. whether<br>
/L/ is needed instead of /Ø/.<br>
<br>
One other thing I forgot to say; The interpretation often depends on<br>
frequency. We have a tendency to first use /H/ and /L/ and then other<br>
tones, such that if the highest pitch were rare in the system (e.g. derived<br>
only in a specific environment), it would likely be called "superhigh". But<br>
this wasn't the issue you were interested in.<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 9:18 AM ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Thank you all for the helpful discussion!<br>
><br>
> I realise I phrased the original question poorly. I’m not so much<br>
> interested in the labels – we can call the two tones whatever we want – I’m<br>
> more interested in the relation of the two tones with reference to<br>
> non-tonal units.<br>
><br>
> So, in languages that contrast two level tones (let’s call them X and Y)<br>
> and toneless units, I’m interested in cases where X and Y are<br>
> phonologically specified to be realised with a higher F0 than toneless<br>
> units (i.e., toneless < X < Y). For that matter, I’d also be interested to<br>
> hear about cases where the two tones are lower than toneless units (i.e., X<br>
> < Y < toneless). I may be wrong, but it’s my impression that these two<br>
> distributions are less common than the more frequent X < toneless < Y.<br>
><br>
> Many thanks again,<br>
> Laura<br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> *From:* Larry M. HYMAN <<a href="mailto:hyman@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">hyman@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
> *Sent:* 27 January 2021 16:47<br>
> *To:* ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>><br>
> *Cc:* <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> ><br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] Tonal inventories: High vs Extra-High<br>
><br>
> This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.<br>
> You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the<br>
> email is genuine and the content is safe.<br>
> There are at least three problems in this discussion.<br>
><br>
> First, there is the problem of whether we are talking phonetics or<br>
> phonology.<br>
><br>
> Second, there is the problem of whether the labeling of tones can be<br>
> uniquely derived from the phonetics, continuous F0 alone (as we can<br>
> identify vowels from the acoustic vowel space).<br>
> As Mark Donohue once put it to me, "We don't hear tones. We hear pitch."<br>
> (and anything co-varying with the pitch: duration, other laryngeal activity<br>
> etc.)<br>
><br>
> Third, there's the sometimes arbitrary labeling of tones.<br>
><br>
> I agree that in some languages the pitch of the highest tone sounds higher<br>
> than in others (and sometimes also individuals speaking the same language).<br>
> It also is the case that in some languages the lowest tone is at rock<br>
> bottom (trailing off especially before pause), while in others, the lowest<br>
> tone has a level "middish" F0.<br>
><br>
> In many cases, the languages where terms like "superhigh" or "extrahigh"<br>
> are invoked not only have some very high pitch realizations, but often ones<br>
> that are derived. For example, in Elaine Thomas' analysis of Engenni<br>
> (Edoid, Nigeria), a H tone is raised to what she calls "top" tone<br>
> (=superhigh) when followed by a L tone (and in certain morphological<br>
> contexts). Since the L sometimes is not realized, this creates a system of<br>
> with a "superhigh", "high", and "low" pitch contrast which then has to be<br>
> interpreted. (I have proposed that the "high" tone is really phonologically<br>
> Ø, such that the system starts out as a /L/ vs. Ø one, but develops into a<br>
> three-height system, S, H and L.) There are other languages where the<br>
> highest tone is derived from the simplification of a H + downstepped H<br>
> sequence (or contour on the same vowel/syllable), and others reported where<br>
> H tone is realized as "superhigh" on high vowels.<br>
><br>
> In my dissertation on Fe'fe' dialect of Bamileke (Grassfields Bantu,<br>
> Cameroon), the general non-low tone was called M, even though there are<br>
> rules raising it (and even L) to H, e.g. in most noun classes, where a M +<br>
> M noun + noun in a genitive relation (N1 of N2) is realized H + M. I<br>
> certainly could have called the M a high tone, and called the H tone as<br>
> superhigh tone. The reason I didn't do this is that I didn't feel that the<br>
> H was any higher than I would expect in a H, M, L system like Yoruba, Nupe<br>
> etc.<br>
><br>
> Mid tone languages are also different from each other. In some the /M/ is<br>
> there underlyingly, in others it is interpreted as the realization of Ø,<br>
> and in still other languages it is derived. (I'm now remembering that I<br>
> once gave a minicourse just on the mid tone--in Leipzig in 2006 :-)!<br>
><br>
> I don't think labeling is as crucial as the characterization of the tonal<br>
> system itself, the relation between the tones, the phonetic implementation<br>
> etc. Maybe someone will come up with an objective way to go from pitch to<br>
> tone category, but so far it isn't automatic (or agreed upon by different<br>
> researchers).<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 7:06 AM ARNOLD Laura <<a href="mailto:Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk" target="_blank">Laura.Arnold@ed.ac.uk</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear colleagues,<br>
><br>
> Does anyone know how frequent two-tone inventories contrasting only High<br>
> and Extra-High are? I’m working with data from a language which has an<br>
> inventory that can possibly be analysed this way (the two tones also<br>
> contrast with toneless syllables). I suspect this is quite an unusual<br>
> inventory, cross-linguistically – it would be helpful to confirm this. I<br>
> would also be interested to hear about similar examples elsewhere in the<br>
> world.<br>
><br>
> Many thanks,<br>
> Laura<br>
><br>
> ~~~<br>
> Laura Arnold – British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow<br>
> <a href="http://laura-arnold.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">laura-arnold.org</a> <<a href="https://www.laura-arnold.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.laura-arnold.org/</a>><br>
><br>
> Room 1.13, Dugald Stewart Building<br>
> School of Philosophy, Psychology & Language Sciences<br>
> University of Edinburgh<br>
><br>
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland,<br>
> with registration number SC005336.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director,<br>
> France-Berkeley Fund<br>
> Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley<br>
> <a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br>
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><br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director,<br>
France-Berkeley Fund<br>
Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley<br>
<a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Professor of Linguistics & Executive Director, France-Berkeley Fund</div><div>Department of Linguistics, University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>