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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In addition to the three issues below, there is a fourth one:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(iv) whether an individual speaker must have a unique internalized system even when their behaviour does not show any variation that would suggest otherwise<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">östen<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="SV">Från:</span></b><span lang="SV"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>För </b>Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Skickat:</b> den 4 februari 2021 14:32<br>
<b>Till:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Ämne:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] papers on non-uniqueness in tone and stress<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">It seems that there are at least three different issues here:<br>
<br>
(i) whether all speakers of a language have the same system even when their conventional behaviour is identical; there happens to be an example of indeterminacy in the latest issue of
<i>Phonological Data and Analysis</i> (see Matthew Gordon's earlier message):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif;color:black;background:white">Bennett, W. G., & Braver, A. (2020). Different speakers, different grammars: Productivity and representation of Xhosa labial palatalization. <i>Phonological
Data and Analysis</i>, <i>2</i>(6), 1–29. </span><a href="https://doi.org/10.3765/pda.v2art6.9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif;color:#0563C1;background:white">https://doi.org/10.3765/pda.v2art6.9</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman ,serif",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
(ii) on what basis one decides between different analyses of a language-particular system; e.g. Schane's (1968) example of English [spin], which can be phonemicized as /sbin/ (with phonetic devoicing of /b/ after sibilant) or /spʰin/ (with phonetic deaspiration
in the same environment).<br>
<br>
(iii) how one links language-particular phenomena to comparative concepts; Erich Round's paper on “Australian Phonemic Inventories Contributed to PHOIBLE 2.0”
<a href="https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3464333">https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3464333</a> is a clear example of this last type. It seems that the issue in Chácobo that Adam Tallman mentioned ("tone" vs. "stress") also falls in this category.<br>
<br>
Phonologists do not always distinguish between (ii) and (iii) (particular description vs. general comparison), as pointed out prominently by Lass (1984) and Simpson (1999) (cited by Erich). But Kiparsky (2018) (also cited by Erich) explicitly rejects the distinction
– I have argued against Kiparsky here: <a href="https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1817">
https://dlc.hypotheses.org/1817</a>.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
Am 04.02.21 um 13:28 schrieb Erich Round:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Adam,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve enjoyed the conversations you’ve sparked here on the list recently, please keep them coming!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for raising an important topic. I have some paper suggestions below. I’d start by saying, though, that you might be getting formal phonologists wrong. Generative theorists from the start were well aware of the non-uniqueness problem,
and that’s one reason why they were so keen on metrics to evaluate multiple candidate grammars. Now, that’s not to say it proved to be plain sailing, but there’s a deep appreciation of the problem buried in the theory, even if for practical purposes much
theoretical work (just like much typological work) assumes only one analysis in order to get some other task completed in a finite amount of time. In optimality theory, the notion of Richness of the base is one new-ish incarnation of attempts to deal with
the matter.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Canonical Typology (Corbett 2005, Round and Corbett 2020) provides the conceptual tools for asking not just whether ‘the best analysis’ is A, B or C, but to what extent, in multiple different regards, A, B and C differ and therefore can
be considered (dis)advantageous in different ways. This helps us clarify why and how multiple analyses arise in the first place. My forthcoming chapter (2021) on phonotactics in Australian languages discusses this with respect to complex segments; Kwon & Round
(2015) discuss it with respect to phonaesthemes; my review (2017) of Gordon’s Phonological Typology (2016) discusses the idea of doing typology over a distribution of possible analyses (which I term ‘factorial analysis’) and points out some places where Gordon’s
own work covertly does this when confronted with non-uniqueness. Parncutt (2015) applies the idea to reduplication, and a current PhD student of mine, Ruihua Yin presented some of her fascinating results regarding sonority sequencing at the Australian Linguistics
Society conference in December; her thesis should be finished early this year, and will be a major undertaking in this kind of typology. Round (2019) discusses how I addressed the issue of non-uniqueness when compiling a typologically nuanced set of 400 Australia
phoneme inventories for Phoible. Natalia Kuznetsova’s work (2019) is relevant to prosody and responds to Hyman’s (2006) classic paper. Other serious discussions of the issue from various angles, typically very thoughtful and some quite in-depth are: Hockett
1963, Lass 1984, Simpson 1999, Hyman 2007, 2008, 2017, Dresher 2009, van der Hulst 2017, Kiparksy 2018.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Erich<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Corbett, Greville G. 2005. “The Canonical Approach in Typology.” In
<i>Linguistic Diversity and Language Theories</i>, edited by Zygmunt Frajzyngier, Adam Hodges, and David S Rood, 25–49. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Dresher, B. Elan. 2009.
<i>The Contrastive Hierarchy in Phonology</i>. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Gordon, Matthew K. 2016.
<i>Phonological Typology</i>. Oxford University Press.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Hockett, Charles F. 1963. “The Problem of Universals in Language.” In
<i>Universals of Language</i>, edited by Joseph Greenberg, 1–29.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Hyman, Larry. 2006. “Word-Prosodic Typology.”
<i>Phonology</i> 23: 225–57.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Hyman, Larry M. 2007. “Where’s Phonology in Typology?”
<i>Linguistic Typology</i> 11: 265–71.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hyman, Larry M. 2008. “Universals in Phonology.” <i>The Linguistic Review</i> 25: 83–137.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Hyman, Larry M. 2017. “What (Else) Depends on Phonology?” In
<i>Dependencies in Language</i>, edited by Nicholas Enfield, 141–58.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Kiparsky, Paul. 2018. “Formal and Empirical Issues in Phonological Typology.” In
<i>Phonological Typology</i>, edited by Larry M. Hyman and Frans Plank, 54–106. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Kuznetsova, Natalia. 2019. What Danish and Estonian can show to a modern word-prosodic typology. In Goedemans, R., Heinz, J., & van der Hulst, H. (Eds.). The study of word stress and accent:
Theories, methods and data. CUP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Kwon, Nahyun, and Erich R. Round. 2015. “Phonaesthemes in Morphological Theory.”
<i>Morphology</i> 25 (1): 1–27.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Lass, Roger. 1984. “Vowel System Universals and Typology: Prologue to Theory.”
<i>Phonology Yearbook</i> 1: 75–111.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Parncutt, Amy. 2015. “Towards a Phonological Typology of Reduplication in Australian Languages.” Honours Thesis, University of Queensland.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Round, Erich R. 2017. “Review of Gordon, Matthew K. Phonological Typology, OUP 2016.”
<i>Folia Linguistica</i> 51 (3): 745–55.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Round, Erich R. 2019. “Australian Phonemic Inventories Contributed to PHOIBLE 2.0: Essential Explanatory Notes.”
<a href="https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3464333">https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3464333</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Round, Erich R. forthcoming 2021. “Phonotactics.” In
<i>Oxford Guide to Australian Languages</i>, edited by Claire Bowern. Oxford: Oxford University Press. DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.2.23022.13120<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Round, Erich R., and Greville G. Corbett. 2020. “Comparability and Measurement in Typological Science: The Bright Future for Linguistics.”
<i>Linguistic Typology</i> 24 (3): 489–525.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Simpson, Adrian P. 1999. “Fundamental Problems in Comparative Phonetics and Phonology: Does UPSID Help to Solve Them.” In
<i>Proceedings of the 14th International Congress of Phonetic Sciences</i>, 1:349–52. Berkeley: University of California.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-indent:-24.0pt">Van der Hulst, Harry. 2017. “Phonological Typology.” In
<i>The Cambridge Handbook of Linguistic Typology</i>, edited by Alexandra Y. Aikhenvald and Robert MW Dixon, 39–77. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> on behalf of TALLMAN Adam
</span><a href="mailto:Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><Adam.TALLMAN@cnrs.fr></span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, 4 February 2021 at 9:20 pm<br>
<b>To: </b>VAN DE VELDE Mark </span><a href="mailto:Mark.VANDEVELDE@cnrs.fr"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><Mark.VANDEVELDE@cnrs.fr></span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">,
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] papers on non-uniqueness in tone and stress</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks, yes, I've read this paper.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Adam</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Adam James Ross Tallman (PhD, UT Austin)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">ELDP-SOAS -- Postdoctorant<br>
CNRS -- Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)<br>
Bureau 207, 14 av. Berthelot, Lyon (07)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Numero celular en bolivia: +59163116867</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> Lingtyp [</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">]
de la part de Mark Van de Velde [</span><a href="mailto:mark.vandevelde@cnrs.fr"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">mark.vandevelde@cnrs.fr</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">]<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 4 février 2021 11:57<br>
<b>À :</b> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] papers on non-uniqueness in tone and stress</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Adam:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I can recommend Hyman (2012).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt">All the best,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Mark</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoBibliography"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hyman, Larry M. 2012. In defense of prosodic typology: A response to Beckman and Venditti.
<i>Linguistic Typology</i>. De Gruyter Mouton 16(3). 341–385. </span><a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/lity-2012-0014" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">https://doi.org/10.1515/lity-2012-0014</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt">.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">On 04/02/2021 11:12, TALLMAN Adam wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Hello all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I'm looking for papers on the notion of non-uniqueness in phonology (or morphosyntax if applicable). I have three so far (Chao, Hockett, and Schane).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">I'm particularly interesting in non-uniqueness in the domain of the description of suprasegmentals - like when we have a system that seems to mix tone and (other
types of) prominence whether the system should be described as tonal with a stress mapped to it or vice versa. Phonologists discuss the issue as if there is an obvious unique best way of describing such relations in all cases. But I think that's probably false
and it choosing one over the other just amounts to an expositional decision - some of the discussion in Tallman and Elias-Ulloa (2020) point in this direction in Chácobo.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">There's also the related issue of
<b><i>when</i></b> the acoustic correlates of some phonological category are organized in such a way as to genuinely merit the designation "tone". Phonologists seem to assume that this issue is trivial or obvious - again, I think this is probably false (the
notion is more open ended than is recognized) regardless of the phonological evidence that can be rallied in support of one position or another.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">@Article{chao:1934:phonemes,<br>
title = {The non-uniqueness of phonemic solutions of phonetic systems},<br>
author = {Yuen Ren Chao},<br>
journal = {Bulletin of the Institute of History and Philology, Academia Sinica},<br>
year = {1934},<br>
volume = {4},<br>
number = {},<br>
pages = {363-397},<br>
%doi = {},<br>
%urldate = {},<br>
}</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">@incollection{hockett:1963:universals,<br>
Author = {Charles F. Hockett},<br>
Booktitle = {Universals of language (Volume 2)}, <br>
Editor = {Joseph H. Greenberg},<br>
Pages = {1-29},<br>
Publisher = {MIT Press},<br>
Address = {Cambridge, MA},<br>
Title = {The problem of universals in language},<br>
Year = {1963},<br>
Edition = {}}</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">@Article{schane:1968:nonuniqueness,<br>
title = {On the non-uniqueness of phonological representations},<br>
author = {Sanford A. Schane},<br>
journal = {Language},<br>
year = {1968},<br>
volume = {44},<br>
number = {4},<br>
pages = {363-397},<br>
%doi = {},<br>
%urldate = {},<br>
}</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">@Article{tallman:eliasulloa:2020:acoustics,<br>
title = {The acoustic correlates of stress and tone in Chácobo (Pano)},<br>
author = {Adam J.R. Tallman},<br>
journal = {The acoustic correlates of stress and tone in Chácobo (Pano): A production study},<br>
editor = {Adam J.R. Tallman and José Élias-Ulloa},<br>
year = {2020},<br>
volume = {147},<br>
number = {4},<br>
pages = {3028},<br>
doi = {</span><a href="https://doi.org/10.1121/10.0001014" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">https://doi.org/10.1121/10.0001014</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">},<br>
%urldate = {2019-07-04},<br>
}</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Adam</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Adam James Ross Tallman (PhD, UT Austin)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">ELDP-SOAS -- Postdoctorant<br>
CNRS -- Dynamique Du Langage (UMR 5596)<br>
Bureau 207, 14 av. Berthelot, Lyon (07)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Numero celular en bolivia: +59163116867</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style="color:black">Lingtyp mailing list</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Mark Van de Velde<br>
Directeur du LLACAN (CNRS-INaLCO) <br>
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