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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Well, the river Saone in Lyon is flanked by one-way streets, and the bus stops along those are identified with “rive gauche [RG]” (left side of the Saone facing the direction of its
flow) and “rive droite [RD]”, e.g. “Homme de la Roche RG” vs “Homme de la Roche RD” are two bus stops at the same level and would be on opposite sides of the street, but they’re separated by the river. Don’t know about the Rhone, since I never take the bus
there, but I would assume it’s the same thing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Maia Ponsonnet<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 05 March 2021 11:42<br>
<b>To:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">of course there is Paris-Rive-Gauche. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">but on the other hand I'd say it's partly lexicalized. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">people much more rarely talk about "rive droite", and I don't think the terminology applies in, says, Lyon with the Rhône for instance? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Maïa<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet<br>
Senior Lecturer, Discipline of Linguistics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Graduate Research Coordinator, School of Social Sciences<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Building M257, Room 2.36<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Faculty of Arts, Business, Law and Education<br>
The University of Western Australia<br>
35 Stirling Hwy, Perth, WA (6009), Australia<br>
P. +61 (0) 8 6488 2870 - M. +61 (0) 468 571 030<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Tilman Berger <<a href="mailto:tberger@uni-tuebingen.de">tberger@uni-tuebingen.de</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 5 March 2021 6:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Testing a generalization about spatial reference frames</span>
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<p>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I would like to support this point, that "left" and "right" can be lexicalized toponyms. There is the distinction of "Left-bank Ukraine" (<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white">Лівобережна Україна)</span>
and "Right<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white">-bank Ukraine" (Правобережна Україна), where "left" means the western bank and "right" the eastern. These terms have been in use since the 17th century.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white">Best wishes</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122;background:white">Tilman<br>
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<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Am 05.03.21 um 11:05 schrieb David Gil:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Relative terms making reference to "left" or "right" may also be lexicalized to form toponyms. For example, the country name Yemen is actually a lexicalization of the Arabic word for "right", drawing upon an canonical orientation facing the rising sun to
the east.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 05/03/2021 10:36, Dmitry Nikolaev wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Juergen,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I don't know what level of conventionalisation you are looking for, but speakers of Russian, at least those who grew up in large cities, tend in general to avoid using geocentric terms and feel uncomfortable using them, and if it is at
all possible to say "The lake is to the right of the hill", I would personally do so. A quick googling showed that this phraseology is quite frequent in route descriptions, and this YouTube video literally advertises a plot of land "to the left of lake Veselovka".<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">My best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dmitry<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 07:26, Bohnemeyer, Juergen <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all — I’d like to solicit your help with a generalization. I’m wondering whether anybody is aware of a counterexample:<br>
<br>
It is well known that there are communities whose members regularly use geocentric terms in reference to the speaker’s own body, as in
<br>
<br>
(1) ‘My western/downhill arm hurts’. <br>
<br>
E.g., Laughren (1978) mentions this phenomenon in reference to Warlpiri. Levinson (2003: 4) notes that the practice exists among speakers of Guugu Yimithirr (Pama-Nyungan, Queensland). Haun & Rapold (2011) present an experimental study of the practice with
speakers of ≠Akhoe Hai||om (Khoekhoe, Namibia).<br>
<br>
Now, I’m interested in what you might consider something of an inverse of this kind of use: the use of relative frames at the geographic scale, as in<br>
<br>
(2) ‘The lake is to the right of the hill’<br>
<br>
My generalization is that there doesn’t seem to be any community in which the type of use exemplified by (2) is conventional.<br>
<br>
That is to say, of course we can easily imagine situations in which English speakers might exchange something like (2):<br>
<br>
* A speaker looking at the lake and hill might use (2) to describe what she sees to an interlocutor who doesn’t have visual access to the scene. The speaker might use relative language in this case in order to produce a vivid image of the scene as it presents
itself to her. <br>
<br>
* A speaker looking at representations of the hill and lake on a map might use (2) metonymically.
<br>
<br>
However, I’m unaware of a community in which something like (2) would be a conventional way of locating landscape entities with respect to one another in the absence of visual access to (representations of) them.
<br>
<br>
(One could argue that (2) is pragmatically semi-infelicitous in such a context since the truth of (2) depends on the location of the observer, which is usually more variable than that of the hill and lake. However, even though the truth of (1) similarly changes
with the speaker’s orientation, it is presumed to be an entrenched strategy for this context in several cultures. My interest is partly in this asymmetry.)<br>
<br>
I’m curious whether people are aware of counterexamples. <br>
<br>
Thanks! — Juergen<br>
<br>
Haun, D. M. B. & C. J. Rapold. (2011). Variation in memory for body movements across cultures. Current Biology 19(23): R1068-1069.<br>
<br>
Laughren,M. (1978). Directional terminology in Warlpiri. in Th. Le and M. McCausland (eds.), Working papers in language and linguistics, 8: 1–16. Launceston: Tasmanian College of Advanced Education.<br>
<br>
Levinson, S. C. (2003). Space in language and cognition. Cambridge: CUP.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
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Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a>
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Office hours will be held by Zoom. Email me to schedule a call at any time. I will in addition hold Tu/Th 4-5pm open specifically for remote office hours.<br>
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<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David Gil<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tilman Berger<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Slavisches Seminar<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Universitaet Tuebingen<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Wilhelmstr. 50<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>D-72074 Tuebingen<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>E-Mail: <a href="mailto:tberger@uni-tuebingen.de">tberger@uni-tuebingen.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Homepage: <a href="https://uni-tuebingen.de/de/135724">https://uni-tuebingen.de/de/135724</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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